Business (Hansard, 22 June 1988)

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I announce that the Report stage of the Education Reform Bill will be adjourned at approximately 7 p.m. for approximately one hour and that during this adjournment the Report stage of the Protection of Animals (Amendment) Bill and the Committee stages 763 of the Horses, Ponies and Donkeys (No. 2) Bill and the Environment and Safety Information Bill will be taken.
Perhaps I may say a few words about the Report stage of the Education Reform Bill. In spite of a very late sitting indeed yesterday, progress was far short of what we had hoped. I realise that many noble Lords feel very strongly on some of the questions that were debated yesterday. However, I make a plea to the House to try to make up some of the ground that we lost yesterday and possibly get much further on today. In this regard perhaps I may draw the attention of your Lordships' House to the Companion to the Standing Orders and in particular to the directions that no noble Lord may speak more than once and that arguments fully deployed in Committee of the whole House should not be repeated at length on Report.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, I appreciate the remarks of the Government Chief Whip but I think that he underestimates the feeling about this Bill on all sides of the House. Surely the Government should have provided more time for us to debate this Bill; surely it is not difficult for the Government Chief Whip to talk over this matter with his colleagues, rearrange tomorrow's business and give us an extra day.

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, the noble Lord has been a Member of this House for a long time and he knows very well that it is up to the House to get through the business of the Government, whether it is a Conservative or a Labour Government who are in power. That has always been thought to be right. If an extra day is produced for one Bill, it means that that day must come off another Bill. It is the job of the usual channels to try to arrange that the time available, which is a finite commodity, is distributed fairly among Bills.
I do not protest about noble Lords speaking with passion when the House debates matters on which they feel very strongly, but time is limited and if noble Lords will speak in shorter compass we shall get through the business more easily.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, I must say to the noble Lord the Chief Whip that the Government have very considerable responsibility for this situation. The House has to consider two huge Bills—the poll tax Bill and the education Bill. They are quite abnormally outsize Bills which we are expected to get through. They are highly controversial and a great many of their provisions are very badly drafted. It is not good enough for the noble Lord to put the blame on the opposition parties. A great deal of it rests with the Government.

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, if the noble Baroness who is the Deputy Leader of the Social and Liberal Democratic Party thinks that it is the duty of this House to hold up government business which has come through another place, then the motives of the Liberal Party have changed dramatically over the years.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, I did not say anything of the sort and the Chief Whip knows perfectly well that I did not say any such thing. I said that the Government had presented this House with two absolutely outsize bills to run concurrently and it is quite unreasonable for them to complain when there is delay that the fault lies with the opposition parties.

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, I do not think I said what the noble Baroness suggests. It is clearly understood that in this House we get through the Government's business. This may be a fairly fraught Session. There have been other fraught Sessions in the past. As the noble Baroness knows full well, the difficulty is that should one take more time on one Bill it means that there is less time available for other Bills. It is an appeal that I make. I am not asking that this House should deal less fully with any subject that it wishes to discuss but that valuable time should be used as effectively as possible so that the business of the House can be carried through.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, the noble Lord has indicated what he believes to be the duty of the Opposition. I believe that the opposition parties in this House have behaved in exemplary fashion in recent weeks, especially in view of the burden laid on them by the Government's legislative programme which in my view is out of all proportion to the length of the Session. One must also bear in mind that this is the first Session of what may possibly be a five-year Parliament. In my opinion the Government have placed an intolerable burden upon this House.
Against that background I think it is quite wrong for the noble Lord to say that the Opposition are in any way failing in their duty. The fact of the matter is that noble Lords on the government side of the House have taken an equal if not greater part in many debates on the Education Reform Bill and the Local Government Finance Bill. That is perfectly right and proper. I believe that this House is conducting itself in an exemplary fashion and is acting very much in the public interest. It is therefore quite wrong for the noble Lord to give the impression of chiding the Opposition—or indeed his own colleagues, because I noted that when he was making his speech he looked back at them.
I plead with the noble Lord and the Leader of the House to consider once again what might be done about this situation. My noble friend said that there was a case for allowing an additional day for this Bill. It may well be that a case can be made out for spending more days on it.
I want to say to the noble Lord that I believe it would be quite wrong for him to expect this House to sit into August. This House should rise at the end of July. It has worked extremely hard for 12 months now, since the last election, and it would be quite wrong for there to be a long overlap period. We have the experience of sitting far longer than the other place and, given the nature of this Chamber, that again is to place a burden which is far too great upon it, especially in view of what noble Lords on all sides of the House do to facilitate the progress of business. It would be very much against the public interest and the interest of this House for dicussion about very 765 important and contentious Bills to be squeezed into a short space of time in order to suit the Government's convenience. It is wrong for the noble Lord to expect that.
The duty of this House is to scrutinise Bills properly. That is what it is doing. I do not expect the noble Lord to reply immediately but I ask him to consider with his noble friend the Leader of the House what might be done to hear the interests of this House in mind.

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, I do not dissent for one moment from what the noble Lord says about the way in which the opposition parties have behaved during this Session. In that regard I have no fault to find at all, and on occasion I have expressed my gratitude for it.
I was answering the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, who suggested that more time should be found. The difficulty is that if we find more time it has to come from somewhere. That is the point I was trying to make. The answer is for the usual channels to get together for discussions. I know that my noble friend the Leader of the House will take a very close interest. If I gave the impression that I was in any way detracting from the function of the opposition parties in the House, I apologise.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I am much obliged for what the noble Lord has said. All of us appreciate that in ordinary circumstances the noble Lord is a nice man. But we want him to transfer that niceness to his office as Government Chief Whip. Perhaps he will be good enough to bear in mind that there have been additions to the programme that was outlined in the gracious Speech last June. For example, we have had the steel privatisation Bill. We have had the addition of the abolition of ILEA to the education Bill. Many other things have been done to increase the burden of work.
The question is whether the noble Lord and other noble Lords expect the gracious Speech to be made in the ordinary way on 5th November. If he is expecting that, then he is expecting this House to do too much. If he is expecting that the House should come back, for example, during the conference period early in October, he is again expecting too much. It is up to the government management to make sure that this House is treated in a proper fashion. I plead with him therefore once again to discuss the matter with his noble friend and his right honourable friends to make sure that business is arranged in a proper fashion.

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has, in his normal charming and skilful way, managed to widen discussion about the Companion to the Standing Orders, and its relevance to today's business, to what the House will do over the coming weeks. The noble Lord has every right to do that. As the noble Lord and I very often meet each other outside the Chamber to discuss the House, I suggest that in addition to the usual channels the noble Lord and I have a word about the future.
766 In the meantime, perhaps I may suggest that we now turn to the business in hand within the confines of the rules of orders set out in your Lordships' Companion.