§ Lord Gladwynasked Her Majesty's Government:
§ What is their reaction to the statement of Mr. Michael Dukakis, as reported in The Times of 30th May, that the United States star wars programme is "a fantasy and a fraud."
§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)My Lords, it is not our practice to comment on newspaper reports. Furthermore, I think that I would be wise not to comment on the positions of candidates for elected office in foreign countries.
§ Lord GladwynMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that not unexpected reply. But is he aware that Mr. Dukakis's dim view of star wars is, broadly speaking, shared by the bulk of informed scientific opinion in America? Is he also aware that, in subsequent declarations Mr. Dukakis, while happily expressing support for NATO and the continued presence of American troops in Europe, has declared his intention, if elected, of actually scrapping SDI and urging his European allies to follow his proposed example of spending less money on nuclear weapons and more on conventional defence?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, Mr. Dukakis's views are of course his own. The Government's views on the SDI have been made known on a number of occasions. I shall not repeat them now. They are of course in line with the four points that my right honourable friend agreed when she was in Washington some years ago and which have not changed in the intervening period. As for Mr. Dukakis's wider views, I do not think that I want to comment on those any more than I wish to comment on his others.
§ Lord Irving of DartfordMy Lords, is the Minister aware that it was the American general, General Abrahamson, who was the leader of the SDI project, who first cast doubt about the validity of the SDI as presented by President Reagan? If the Minister cannot comment on that point, can he comment on the other points made by the presidential candidate: that he strongly urged the United States Administration to complete a START treaty before the end of this year and, secondly, to work much more closely with their allies in Europe?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that the Government have no complaints about the consultation which has gone on between the United States and the other allied governments, 598 especially with regard to the possibility of future arms control agreements. Indeed, as the noble Lord will recall, President Reagan made a point of calling in at London on his way back to the United States after his visit to Moscow. I do not believe that I should be dragged into commenting upon Mr. Dukakis's views.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I believe that the noble Lord would take as much exception to that, or he ought to, as he would if Mr. Dukakis were to comment upon the noble Lord's views.
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, does not the whole experience of this country in relation to presidential elections in the United States underline the wisdom of my noble friend's last reply? Has it not been a dangerous thing to comment upon statements made by presidential candidates ever since the notorious Cleveland letter?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, my noble and learned friend has rightly pointed to the danger of commenting upon the views of presidential candidates. It is probably equally unwise to comment upon the views of some parliamentary candidates in this country.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, irrespective of what a presidential candidate may or may not have said, is it not a fact that Soviet Russia does not believe that the United States' star wars programme is "a fantasy and a fraud"?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the Soviet Union is conducting a wide range of research programmes into activities of that kind. The SDI programme is of course a research programme, no more and no less.
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, ought we not to wait until after the American presidential election before we presume to start telling the Americans what their defence and foreign policy should be?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I do not think that I shall dictate to the United States either before or after the presidential election.
§ Lord MayhewMy Lords, does the Minister agree that, apart from any question of the presidential elections, prospects for SDI have become uncertain? What arrangements have been made to cover British firms with SDI contracts?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, British firms are already involved in a number of SDI-related contracts. The Government are happy that that should be so.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I appreciate the point made by the Minister about the statement made by a presidential candidate. I believe that the Government's attitude on that point is correct. Exceedingly important statements have been made on star wars by the President of the United States and by Mr. Gorbachev. Does the Minister agree therefore 599 that while we cannot comment on what candidates are saying, we have a right to seek guidance from the Government about what President Reagan has said about star wars after the representations made to him by Mr. Gorbachev?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, yes; I am quite happy to support the observations of President Reagan so far as concerns the star wars programme. As I have said before, it is a research programme upon which the Soviet Union is equally actively involved. The United Kingdom therefore supports the United States SDI programme and is involved in it.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, would not the Government agree that my noble friend Lord Mayhew probably meant his question the other way round? Perhaps I may ask it again. What plans have the Government to help British firms which get into difficulties when American support for SDI-related research is withdrawn?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I have no reason to think that that will happen. United Kingdom institutions and firms which involve themselves in the work to which the noble Lord refers are doing so in accordance with contracts which in my view are not likely to be altered.