HL Deb 21 June 1988 vol 498 cc605-6

3.2 p.m.

Lord Molloy asked Her Majesty's Government:

What is the degree of acceptance by NATO and Warsaw Pact countries of systems of verification to bring about the reduction and abolition of nuclear weapons.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, we consider that nuclear weapons will continue to be an essential part of NATO's deterrent for the foreseeable future. But like other NATO governments we support arms control agreements and believe that they should be stringently verified. We play a part in ensuring that that is the case for the INF treaty.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. Does the Minister agree that the science of verification must be at the heart of every disarmament treaty? We are all involved. It appears that since December, when there were discussions regarding the INF treaty between Mr. Gorbachev and President Reagan, the Americans have arrived at what they call an open regime verification for the INF treaty. We were not involved in that. Other NATO countries were not involved. We do not have any information about the involvement of the Warsaw Pact countries. Does the Minister believe that we should become more closely involved on the vital issue of verification? Without complete and foolproof verification, no disarmament treaty will be worth a light.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I agree that verification is a critical aspect of such treaties. However, I can assure the noble Lord that we were fully consulted by the United States on the verification and other provisions of the INF treaty. The noble Lord may he aware that there is an agreement between the United States and the so-called basing countries as regards the verification of the agreement. There has also been an exchange of letters with the Soviet Union as regards aspects of the matter which affect that country and ourselves.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, does verification extend, as I believe it ought, to all forms of underground tests and also to weapons which are not nuclear but which can, with modification, become nuclear weapons almost immediately? Are they included in full and comprehensive verification?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords. I believe that the noble Lord is referring to the possibility of a comprehensive test ban treaty. Perhaps the noble Lord will forgive me for saying that that is another question.

Lord Glenamara

My Lords, do the Government support the statement made yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, about the undesirability of working towards a nuclear-free world?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I have not seen the words to which the noble Lord refers. As I said in my Answer, we certainly agree that for the foreseeable future the prospect of a nuclear-free world is likely to be elusive.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, are the Government prepared to talk with our allies as regards possible cheating on verification tests?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, it is the heart of the verification aspect of any agreement that cheating should not be possible.