Emergencies: Training of Volunteers (Hansard, 16 June 1988)

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, no central government funds are specifically available for training volunteers for peacetime emergencies. However, we estimate that local authorities spent about £1 .75 million in 1987–88 on training volunteers for civil defence. Expenditure is likely to be similar in 1988–89. Under the provisions of the Civil Protection of Peacetime Act, resources which are provided for civil defence purposes may also be used for peacetime emergencies.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his reply. May I ask whether the Government accept that volunteers have an important part to play in major peacetime emergencies—especially if an incident such as that at Chernobyl should occur again—but that they need to be trained for the purpose? Is he further aware that some local authorities appear to consider that they do not need to enlist and train volunteers for peacetime purposes? What is the Government's attitude to that situation?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that such volunteers are an integral and most important part of any civil defence or peacetime emergency. Of course the local authorities must make up their own minds as to how best they can use the volunteers in their region. They can do this by keeping in touch with the voluntary organisations.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, is the Minister aware that civic pride and initiative are being retarded throughout the country by the Government's policy of demoting local authorities? Is this not therefore a wonderful opportunity for the Government to make specific grants, for the purpose mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Renton, in order once again to encourage civic pride and to let authorities have some status?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, would not expect me to agree with his quite fallacious remark that the Government are injuring the pride of local authorities. We have always taken the view that civil defence and the protection of people in peacetime are very much matters for the local authorities.
The Government have produced a planned programme of implementation upon which we have 374 invited local authorities to tell us how they are progressing. Indeed, they will be doing precisely what the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, wishes; namely, responding to the reactions in their areas.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, if local authorities are invited to get ready for emergencies of the kind that the noble Lord, Lord Renton, pointed out could easily happen and at the same time are under severe pressure in deciding the priorities on which to spend their money, surely some positive encouragement by the Government in doing what the noble Lord has asked will go a long way.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, some £22 million is already spent on civil defence. The noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton—if he will contain himself for half a moment—will know that any requirements for civil defence can also be used for peacetime emergencies. Therefore, the structure required is already there.
I explained to my noble friend Lord Renton, in answer to his Question, that it was estimated that some £1 .75 million had been spent on the training of volunteers during the past year. Further, it is anticipated that the proposed expenditure for this year is likely to be about the same. Therefore, work is in progress and expenditure has been allocated. The question is whether the local authorities are best placed to carry it out; I believe that they are.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there are many local authorities who regard civil defence as a joke? Therefore, to ask people to volunteer for such work is a waste of time. What is the Minister doing about encouraging local authorities not to treat the matter as a joke?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords,it is most difficult for me to answer when the noble Lord says that some local authorities regard civil defence as a joke whereas the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, says that the Government ought to allow local authorities to do what they want in this connection.
We have introduced a planned programme of implementation. We have invited local authorities—even those who regard it as a joke—to tell the Government what they are doing for civil defence purposes. The plan is being phased in over three years. However, I think I meet the points made by both noble Lords opposite when I say that the Government have a plan and it is therefore for the local authorities to implement it. It is the Government's duty to ensure that they do so.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, following the question of the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, will my noble friend confirm that local authorities have statutory responsibility, laid down by Parliament, to carry out certain functions in relation to civil defence, and that therefore when spending money on that, either with or without the Government's help, they should also he directly preparing for peacetime emergencies?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, my noble friend is right. Local authorities have a statutory responsibility to accept and train civil defence volunteers. It is equally 375 true that they can use those resources for peacetime purposes where they think it proper and fit to do so. Planning for civil emergencies is carried out at present by local authorities without there being a specific statutory duty. I am not sure that we need primary legislation to make local authorities do what they wish to do. The implication of that point will be considered in the consultation exercise which is being carried out at the moment.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, the Minister must surely know that there are many local authorities which do not take any notice of what the Government say about civil defence. Indeed, they have put up placards saying that they are nuclear-free zones, whatever that may mean.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I know exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, means and to what he refers. However, the great majority of authorities are responding well to their statutory obligations. They include those which from time to time style themselves as nuclear-free zones. I am not aware that any of those authorities are refusing to carry out their statutory obligations.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, will the Minister give the response of the local authorities to the Government's request for information? Can he say which local authorities are implementing schemes to deal with emergencies, such as the great storm of last October? Will he say what the experience of his department was following that storm? Were he and his right honourable friend satisfied that the local authorities had responded adequately? Will he give the House a little more information?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, clearly, when any disaster occurs it takes some time to gear the necessary forces together. Dealing with such disasters is very much a matter for the emergency services. We were satisfied with how the emergency services carried out their work during last autumn's disaster, to which the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition referred. We have had a number of discussions. I told the British Red Cross on 2nd March that we were looking closely at many proposals for improving the United Kingdom's response to peacetime emergencies. A discussion paper will shortly be circulated to seek the expert views of the operational emergency services both on their present abilities and on scope for improvements. That consultation document will be circulated and we shall see what the professionals and others have to say.