"Council of the North" (Hansard, 15 June 1988)

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I am not aware that any such representations have been received.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer, although it was not very helpful. However, it leads me to the main point behind the Question. Will the Minister accept that the caning of the council itself, apart from the incidence of the Rowntree affair, indicates the concern felt by some parts of the United Kingdom that they are being neglected, compared with areas in the South?
Moreover, now that even Mr. Heseltine has been converted to the idea that there is a North-South divide—roughly in that geographical line—can we have some response from the Government on the matter? Further, can the Minister say whether the Government intend to do anything about redressing the balance?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I understood that the so-called "Council of the North" had been convened to discuss the bid by Nestle and Suchard for Rowntree. I am not aware that there was any wider implication behind the formation of the council. However, I shall certainly draw the noble Lord's comments to the notice and attention of my appropriate right honourable friend.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, the noble Lord the Secretary of State has repeatedly said—and we agree with him—that the objective of regional policy is to ensure that regions should not continue to be branch economies; but that decisions about regions should be taken in the regions themselves. How does that square with the only criterion that the Secretary of State recommends as being a basis for merger references; namely, the criterion of competition? Does this not mean that if firms like Rowntree are taken over—and there are plenty of firms in the 269 North like Rowntree—they will become branches of international firms and hence the economics will become branch economies? Is that not the point that the "Council of the North" is trying to make?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I sense that the trend is probably in the other direction. As the EC market opens up in 1992 there will be a much bigger market. We must look to broadening the ability of our economy to compete in the world market and, indeed, in the European market. To have a competition policy on the basis of a regional policy within the United Kingdom would be self-defeating. It seems to me that competition policy will have to be opened up to consider far wider implications, especially that of the single European market.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, can the Minister or any Member of the House tell me exactly what the "Council of the North" is?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I have noted, especially from reports which have appeared in the press, that the so-called "Council of the North" has been convened by a group of Yorkshire mayors—or mayors in that region to consider the implications of the bids for Rowntree. However, I understand that it is somewhat dissimilar to the Council of the North that I think last met in 1641.

§ Lord Mottistone
My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend has had the opportunity to read the article written by Sir Hector Laing which appeared in The Timeson 2nd June, which had a most useful contribution to make on the subject. If he has not done so, will he take the precaution of reading the article to see whether we can perhaps learn something from it, as it is probably the soundest piece of background information available to us?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, from what my noble friend has said I am not clear what the article is about, but I shall look at it.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the Minister aware that regional policy is not only about providing more badly needed jobs in the North of England, it is also about improving the quality of life in some of the towns in the South which are now overcrowded, traffic-ridden and service lacking? Is he aware that all that could be cured by a proper regional policy which redistributes jobs throughout the country to enable all of us not just to have jobs but to have a decent environmental standard?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, the noble Lord is right. Considerable problems are created in the South by traffic and other environmental hazards. They are caused by the sheer number of people concentrated in a small area. I have seen that the North and other regions are coming up. Property prices are beginning to rise. In some instances it is becoming difficult to find suitable people to fill jobs. The trend in many cases is possibly away from the South and hack towards the North.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, will the Minister explain how it improves our competitiveness for Swiss firms to take over our best firms in preparation for 1992 when firms in this country are not allowed to merge for that new era?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I am not aware that firms in this country are not allowed to merge. I am not sure what the noble Lord means by that. We operate an open economy. We doubt whether the Swiss system serves their economy well.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, may I explain to the noble Lord that in this country our policy is that if too big a share of the market is to be taken by a merger, it will be referred to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission? That is the case with chocolate manufacturing firms in this country.

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, that question is wide of the Question on the Order Paper. I should point out that Nestle and Suchard have only 3 per cent. and 2 per cent. of the United Kingdom chocolate market.

§ Lord Murray of Epping Forest
My Lords, does the Minister's reply to an earlier question imply that we should regard rises in property prices as a sign of economic health?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords. I was making the point that there seems to be an increasing demand for property in the regions; that prices are rising, and that that is often an indicator of economic activity in the regions.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, why does the Minister keep referring to the organisation as the "so-called Council of the North"? That organisation has existed for many years. Is it not one more demonstration of the ignorance of people in the South of what is happening in the North? More importantly, is he further aware that there is a grave shortage of factory space in the northern region, as was admitted by his noble friend the Secretary of State? What are the Government doing about that?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I understand that the "Council of the North", as convened recently, uses that title in quotation marks to distinguish it from the Council of the North that was some form of northern Privy Council. That is what the council has been quoted as saying in the press. The Government do not have a representative on the current "Council of the North" so I cannot fully answer the noble Lord's question on that point. Yes, in some regions there is a shortage of factory space. We are addressing that problem. English Estates is doing an excellent job in parts of England. The Welsh Office has just announced a package of measures to improve matters in Wales. I am sure that the Scottish Office is doing everything in its power to ensure that a shortage of factory space is not a hindrance to economic development in the regions.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, what does the Minister mean by the term "some form of Privy Council"?

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, is not the history of the only Council of the North with that official designation one which has been universally condemned since the Glorious Revolution of 1688?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, my knowledge of history is not as good as that of the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi. I understand that to draw a direct comparison between the Privy Council, as we know it, and the Council of the North of those days would be erroneous.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, does the Minister accept that the concentration in the South-East to which he referred is a result of market forces? Does he accept that as we move forward to 1992 the same market forces may move a further concentration into Europe? Does he accept that that is a potential threat to peripheral areas of the United Kingdom, especially in view of the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, on 21st October (Hansard col. 226), following a suggestion made by the noble Viscount, Lord Mersey, said that he would have consultations with his colleagues about the possibility of moving some government departments out of the South-East?
Does the noble Lord accept that the noble Lord, Lord Young, on 21st April (Hansardcol. 1637), said that he heard what I was saying? I was saying that there should be some movement of government activities away from the South-East. That had nothing to do with competition. The noble Lord said: I hear hat the noble Lord says and I shall discuss the matter"—

Noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
—Lords, he continued: I shall discuss the matter with my colleagues In view of that, I ask the Minister: when will we receive a serious, considered reply from the Government about the problems that have been showing themselves in the North and which are now being exacerbated?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I do not know when the noble Lord will receive a reply. However, the Government's policy on moving civil servants out of the South-East is well known and, as the noble Lord has said, has been stated many times in your Lordships' House. As regards opportunities that will be available to British industry after 1992, I see no reason why the regions; that is, those parts of the country outside what the noble Lord referred to as the South-East, should not participate fully in those opportunities. Alter 1992 there will be every opportunity to make a great success. I detect that there is already a shift back to the regions and to the North.