Community Charge Registers, Scotland (Hansard, 14 June 1988)

§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Sanderson of Bowden)
My Lords, the regulations prescribe a standard canvass form for use both initially and once the system is running. It is made clear in the notes to the form that the information in question is only to be supplied when the form is issued after 1st April 1989. It will be necessary for registration officers to have the information in respect of people becoming resident after 1st April 1989 since their liability for the personal community charge will run from the date when their residence starts.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. I appreciate the need for clear identification. However, does my noble friend agree that even in the clan areas of the Highlands there are not so many people with the same name—for example, Mackay, Cameron or Campbell—as to cause ambiguity at individual addresses?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, we are straying into the area of the ability to find out the members of the family in any particular clan, if I may put it that way. We are on to the question of the date of birth and the reason for it which was fully debated when the Bill was before the House.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, the important issue is not the date of birth but the date of residence. The issue of the date of birth was contained in a Written Question which I tabled.

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I accept that. The whole question of the date as from 1st April 1989, and the reason why it is in the form for the purpose thereafter, is to ensure that when people change their addresses the registration officer is able to determine at what date the residence started.
However, as regards the date of birth, it is well know from our debates that the reason for the date of birth is to determine who, and what, people are in any particular family.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, is not the whole basis of the new legislation that it no longer matters whether or not one inhabits a house; what matters is the use one makes of the public services? Is it not the Government's case that those who sleep under the arches in London or under the hedges in Scotland, or Ministers who come to work in offices, make use of local services and they should pay? However, what possible justification can there be to ask for the very day of the month on which I moved into my house in Scotland, which was over 30 years ago?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, it is important because it is certain that the local authority will want to know what community charge to levy for any part of the year on a person who moves to and resides in a house in a particular area.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, considering how unpopular this legislation is in Scotland, can the Minister give any indication of the rate of return of these forms? Is he satisfied that the forms are being returned to the degree that he expects?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, one always has to be cautious in replying to such a general question. However, all 10 registration officers charged with compiling Scotland's community charge registers are confident that they can provide their lists on time.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, the Minister appeared to be complacent, particularly in the Scottish Office press statement yesterday, in endeavouring to recover from the gaffe over the lottery. Local authorities are entitled to run a lottery but to tie up a lottery with rates is a different matter. The statement said that the registration process is proceeding satisfactorily. Does that also include the serious increase in costs to local authorities?
The Minister will have read that Mr. Mackay, the Highland regional assessor and joint community charge officer, said that his officers have been amazed at the tremendous number of calls, inquiries and correspondence from the public. New telephones have had to be installed to deal with the extra calls made in order to assist people to fill in their forms. There is a great extra cost. Will the Government make any allowance for that when the registers are finally compiled?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, is right in saying that the cost of implementation of any new initiative is bound to be high. Of course, the Government will take account of the general costs. However, the whole operation is going smoothly and we look forward to hearing from local authorities on their progress as the months go by. I repeat what I said to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe: the authorities are confident that they can provide the lists on time; and that must be in the interests of the whole country.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the requirement for detailed information on these forms makes the task of completing them seem daunting and oppressive? I 145 know that from neighbours who were former constituents of mine who have sought my help in completing the forms. Should not something simpler be devised for England in a year's time?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I shall certainly pass on those remarks to my noble friend Lord Caithness when he considers the position for England. All I say to my noble friend is that in any new initiative there are always problems when getting down to composing the forms prescribed. It does present difficulties. However, the registration officers, who are the key men and women, are optimistic that they will be able to deliver on time what they are required to do.

§ Lord Whaddon
My Lords, if it is important, as the noble Lord says, to know the exact date when a person commences residence in order to calculate what proportion of the community charge he must pay, how do the Government justify charging double the poll tax for people who have two residences since clearly they cannot be in two places simultaneously?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I do not wish to go into the details of this whole matter, which was very fully debated. I am dealing with the Scottish Act. As regards the Scottish Act there is grace given for the months when one does not have to pay as one moves from a residence. That was debated very fully at the time.

§ Lord Howie of Troon
My Lords, the Minister says that the Government will take into account the costs of implementing the community charge or poll tax. Does he mean that the poll tax will be increased to cover these costs or does he mean that the Government will cover the costs in some other way?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I repeat what I said. We shall take into account all the information we receive while we implement this new and very complicated business. I am very confident that, when we come to assess it, the results will be very satisfactory.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, the Minister said that matters are going smoothly. Did the Minister see the report in the Scottish newspapers of last week that 27 canvassers or collectors, whatever they are, had to leave the Strathclyde district for reasons of assault? I believe that was the reason. They were afraid of being assaulted or they had been assaulted. Would the Minister care to comment on that situation, because I understand that it is difficult to replace these persons?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I am delighted to respond. I do not know which newspapers the noble Lord reads, but I was delighted to read in the Sunday Times of May 29th 1988 that in the Central Region the rate of return was 92 per cent.

§ Lord Whaddon
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that my supplementary question did not refer to people who moved during the year, but to people who 146 normally have two residences on account of their occupations and who therefore cannot spend double time in one place?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, this depends upon the view of the registration officer as to what is the main residence of the person. If it is a question of a second home, the noble Lord knows very well that certainly in the case of Scotland there are regulations regarding the standard community charge.