Palace of Westminster: Telecommunications (Hansard, 9 June 1988)

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, the total expenditure on telecommunications in the Palace of Westminster and in those other buildings occupied by the two Houses of Parliament in the financial year 1987–88 was £1,919,162. Mercury Communications have approached the authorities in both Houses. Before any possible changes to the existing circuits linking the Palace of Westminster to the public telephone network are considered by the appropriate committees of the two Houses, the Central Computer and Telecommunications Agency has been asked to advise the House authorities on the results of a three-month evaluation of the use of Mercury circuits within the Department of Trade and Industry. In the meantime, Mercury has been asked to prepare detailed costings for the possible provision of its services to the Palace of Westminster.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his full and courteous reply. Is he aware that in areas where Mercury can offer services there 1488 could be savings of 30 per cent. on local calls, 20 per cent. on national long distance calls and about 17 per cent. on international calls? As the Palace of Westminster is paying some £2 million a year, the taxpayer and parliamentarians might gain considerably if Mercury facilities, now on order for the Press Association, were more widely available in the Palace of Westminster.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for giving me notice of possible savings to be made by the use of Mercury services, some of which my noble friend has put before me. As I have said, in the light of the advice from the CCTA and once detailed proposals have been put forward by Mercury, the appropriate committees of the two Houses will be able to consider the matter. I am su[...] they will need to give particular attention to the cost implications.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, in the meantime, will the Leader of the House not agree that the system has given an increasingly first-class service since 1972, when the present system came into existence, with a number of benefits to Members of both Houses which any outside company would find very difficult to match? Secondly, will the noble Lord tell us how many incoming calls are handled by our telephone system on any given sitting day?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I have to admit to the Leader of the Opposition that I do not know the number of incoming calls. I have all the details of the expenditure, but not the number of incoming calls. Perhaps I could try to find that out and let the noble Lord know.
Perhaps I may make one point in answer to the first supplementary question which the noble Lord asked me. The noble Lord referred to the satisfactory nature of the present system and the fact that it had been in place since 1972. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, that it is a sophisticated system and, so far as I know, serves both Houses well. But it has not actually been in place, as we have it at the moment, since 1972. The system was changed to what was called an Octara exchange system, which consisted of a number of mini-systems, and many new handsets were put in place, as your Lordships know, about two and a half years ago.
The question has arisen today because Mercury did not tender at that time, because the Mercury service of lines was not available when the change was made in 1985–86. Indeed, Mercury approached the authorities of the two Houses after the new system had been installed. Nonetheless, the question is now being considered again. Pursuant to the reply which I gave to my noble friend Lord Orr-Ewing, I know that the committees of both Houses are very much aware that Mercury is interested in providing its services within the Palace of Westminster.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, will the Minister break down the nearly £2 million between your Lordships' House and another place? Which portion is being used by which House?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, of the nearly £2 million over £1 million is telephone usage, in other words the making of calls. Then there are other items such as telephonists' charges of £½ million, and other amounts as well. I do not have the total amounts for the House of Lords and the House of Commons. However, I can say that of the total telephone expenditure the House of Commons accounted for 86.1 per cent. and the House of Lords 9.8 per cent.

Noble Lords
Hear, hear.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, do not those figures convey that Members of your Lordships' House are behaving with admirable restraint?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, as always.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, does the Minister agree that Members of your Lordships' House do not have constituents whom they must telephone?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, that is also true.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, can the Minister say whether, in addition to the Palace of Westminster and the DTI, Mercury Services are being given the opportunity to quote for other Civil Service departments?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I believe that other government departments are taking a similar attitude, as are the committees of both Houses. For approximately three months an evaluation has been taking place in the department of my noble friend Lord Young of Graffham and it is reaching a conclusion. The House might like to know that this week officials of the Central Computer and Telecommunications Agency will hold initial discussions with the authorities in another place about the DTI experiment.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, as a matter of legal and constitutional machinery, will my noble friend tell the House the process by which an ultimate decision will be arrived at when the two committees have considered the matter? Will both Houses have to pass a resolution?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, as far as I am aware the Services Committee of another place will refer the matter through to the House of Commons Commission. The Administration Committee of your Lordships' House will refer the matter to the Offices Committee of your Lordships' House. The Chairman of Committees is the chairman of both the Administration Committee and the Offices Committee. I should like to refer to him before giving a final answer to my noble and learned friend. However, as I understand the matter, the Offices Committee could then take a decision without making a reference to your Lordships' House.

§ Lord John-Mackie
My Lords, can the Minister help with the technicalities of the matter? The noble Lord's Question states: to tender for some of this business". 1490 Does that mean that probably there will be two sets of telephones, two sets of lines and Heaven knows what?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the simple answer, which I also needed to know, is that we would not need two sets of lines.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, do I understand from my noble friend's answer to my noble and learned friend that it could be that the two Houses may come to different conclusions and, as with television, we shall have a different view?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, no. It is most important that I should say to my noble friend that that could not be the case. As your Lordships will appreciate, the Palace has a single exchange and a single unified telecommunications system. It would not be practical for the two Houses to proceed independently of each other.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, will my noble friend allow me to say that the existing staff provided by BT are most helpful, courteous and efficient in handling our calls? However, that does not mean that a whiff of competitive grapeshot would not make matters even better were Mercury allowed to provide an alternative service.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, this has been a useful exchange. Perhaps it will be the more useful if, before we conclude, I say that I was wrong in replying to my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham. As he probably apprehended (but he was kind enough not to take me up on it) the Offices Committee of your Lordships' House would have to report to the House and that report must be agreed by your Lordships' House. That would be the constitutional position.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, in that case, would it not—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, no. Is the Minister saying that if, when the matter is reported to the House, the House comes to a different conclusion, it could be a separate decision? If that is so, his answer to me does not appear to stand.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, it is perfectly true that technically that could be the case. However, constitutionally the two Houses have co-operated together for many years in administering the joint system and they have devised benefit from such co-operation. I like to believe that the two Houses will wish to continue with that system.