§ 2.40 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of Lusby asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ What assistance is being given to the United Kingdom-South Africa Trade Association delegation to South Africa and whether this is consistent with their commitment to the agreement made at the Nassau Commonwealth Conference in 1985.
§ The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Lord Young of Graffham)My Lords, officials both in the United Kingdom and overseas provide information and advice on the market to business visitors to South Africa, whether they travel there as individuals or as members of a trade mission. Such assistance is not contrary to any of our undertakings on South Africa.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, has the Secretary of State the slightest understanding of what is at stake here? Is it not correct that the Prime Minister signed the communiqué in Nassau which pledged each country in the Commonwealth to dissuade trade with South Africa? How is that consonant with the Department of Trade and Industry not funding but promoting this trade association mission by giving it the opportunity of diplomatic support in South Africa, and attempting to increase trade between Britons and South Africa? How is that consonant with the communiqué at Nassau in 1985?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, may be suffering from this difficulty: I have a very clear idea of what was agreed at the Commonwealth Heads of Government 1403 Meeting at Nassau in October 1985. We agreed—and agreed explicitly—that no funding for trade missions to, or participation in, exhibitions and trade fairs in South Africa would be undertaken by the Government. We undertake that to the letter. But we did not stop trade with South Africa; nor do we intend to do so; nor is there any implication that we would do so. We do not believe that sanctions are an effective means of ending apartheid. We believe that they would hurt those we seek to protect and that they would prolong the conflict.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, do Her Majesty's Government advise British companies to invest in South Africa? Is the British Embassy in Pretoria also advised and authorised to accommodate this association and to encourage it in its work?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, we take the view that the level of civil trade in South Africa should, within the limits of our international obligations and undertakings, be determined by the commercial judgment of those engaged in it. With the exception of funding for outward missions and trade fairs, there are no constraints on the advice and support which my department offers to exporters to South Africa.
Indeed, I should remind the House that South Africa remains a major market for UK exporters. Our exports increased by some 13 per cent. in the period January to April 1988, compared with 1987. In accordance with the agreements which we entered into and honour with the Commonwealth Heads of Government in Nassau, there is a voluntary ban on certain new investments within South Africa.
§ Lord WalstonMy Lords, will the noble Lord tell us whether it is the policy of his department and Her Majesty's Government to encourage still more trade with South Africa, to discourage trade with South Africa or to remain absolutely neutral in the matter?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, everything I say today, and everything that my department does, does not in any way indicate that we are content with the present policy which is carried on by the Government of South Africa with regard to apartheid. We do not see that we can cure the problem by means of sanctions in that sense. The answer that I have already given to your Lordships this afternoon is that we leave the level of trade to be determined by the commercial judgment of those engaged in it.
§ Lord ChalfontMy Lords, will the Minister confirm, to put this matter in a broader context, that any citizen of this country, whether sportsman or businessman, is perfectly free to conduct his business anywhere he wishes in the world, whether in the Soviet Union, South Africa or anywhere else?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, I am very happy to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont. However, there are other matters which affect sportsmen, who are not within my province; but in the case of businessmen I agree wholeheartedly.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, we are talking here about lives and liberties—
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyWe are talking here—
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, we are talking here about lives and liberties. I am asking the Secretary of State how he can equate the pledge that was given at the Nassau Commonwealth Conference to dissuade traders in each of the member countries from carrying on trade with South Africa with the government support that is being given to trade association delegations.
Is it true that Mr. David Bell, who is the chief executive of the British Overseas Exports Board, visited South Africa in February this year on behalf of a government department to promote and increase trade, despite the pledge that we had given in Nassau to dissuade any companies in this country—not to prevent them but to dissuade them—from continuing trade with South Africa?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, where I suspect I am in full agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, is in our dislike for apartheid, but where I believe we disagree is the best method to help to persuade the South African Government to proceed with political reform.
We agreed in 1985 and 1986 with our partners in the Commonwealth that we would restrict our funding for trade missions and our participation and funding in exhibition and trade fairs in South Africa as a signal to the South African Government of the need to press ahead with political reform. It is not in any way intended to discourage trade with South Africa nor to harm the South African economy since in the view of the Government that is not the best way to advance the needs of those who would like to see an end to apartheid.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, is it not a fact that if all trade between ourselves and the South Africans were discontinued immediately the first people to be hurt would be the coloureds?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, I suspect that the black and coloured communities would be the first to suffer in the event of the economy really turning down. We are adamant in our desire to continue to help to persuade the Government of South Africa to end apartheid. The measures we have taken have been a signal to that Government that we stand by each and every word of the undertakings we have given.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, is the noble Lord then saying that his Government did not agree to dissuade companies in each of the Commonwealth countries from pursuing and extending their trade with South Africa? Is that what he is saying?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, in addition to the ban on funding for outward trade missions, the measures we agreed which most affect our civil trading links with South Africa were a ban on the import of certain gold coins, a ban on the import of certain hulk iron and steel, and a voluntary ban on certain new investments within South Africa. As I have said before and as no doubt I shall continue to say, we stand by every word we then agreed.