HL Deb 25 July 1988 vol 500 cc43-50

31 After Clause 188, insert the following new clause:

("Assistance to education of children of British nationality residing for the time being outside the United Kingdom in another member state of the European Community.

.—(1) For the purpose of facilitating the free movement of families to take advantage of employment opportunities within other member states of the European Community, the Secretary of State shall take action as specified in subsections (2) to (5) below to assist in maintaining and improving educational standards at British schools situated within other member states and to facilitate access to such schools by the children of British expatriates for the time being residing and working in those states.

(2) The Secretary of State shall establish a category of school situated in another member state of the European Community having such characteristics as are specified in subsection (3) below and in regulations which he may make.

(3) The characteristics mentioned above are that the school—

  1. (a) provides education for pupils who have attained the age of five but not the age of nineteen years and are of British nationality but are residing in anther member state of the European Community; and
  2. (b) has a curriculum approved by the Secretary of State and which is broadly similar to the curriculum the pupil would follow if receiving an education in England and Wales.

(4) For the purpose of maintaining and improving the standard of education at such a school, the Secretary of State shall—

  1. (a) make arrangements for the inspection of such a school at appropriate intevals by H.M. Inspector of Schools, 44 with the school being responsible for the Inspectors' travel and local expenses;
  2. (b) provide on a regular basis to such a school information on educational development in England and Wales and also facilities such as in-service training for teachers as he may consider necessary or desirable to enable the school to continue to offer an education broadly comparable to that available in England and Wales; and
  3. (c) take such measures as he deems appropriate to facilitate the recruitment of British teachers by these schools and in due course their re-employment in the United Kingdom.

(5) The Secretary of State shall make an order to establish a Grant Scheme for the purpose of enabling children of parents of British nationality for the time being residing and working in another member state of the European community, who might otherwise not be able to do so, to benefit from an education at a school in the category described in subsection (2) above and so facilitate their return to a school or institute of higher education in the United Kingdom.").

32 The Commons disagreed to the above amendment but proposed the following amendment in lieu thereof—

("Services for schools in other member States providing education fin- British children.

.—(1) This section applies to any school which—

  1. (a) is situated in a member State other than the United Kingdom;
  2. (b) provides education for pupils who are British citizens have attained the age of five years but not the age of nineteen rears and are residing in that member State:
  3. (c) has a curriculum which, in the case of any pupil at the school, is broadly similar to the curriculum which he would follow if he were a pupil at a maintained school in England and Wales: and
  4. (d) has such other characteristics as may be prescribed.

(2) In the case of a school to which this section applies the Secretary of State shall—

  1. (a) on a regular basis provide the persons responsible for the management of the school with such information relating to educational development in England and Wales as he thinks appropriate: and
  2. (b) if those persons so request, make arrangements for inspections to he made of the school at such intervals as appear to him to he appropriate by persons appointed as inspectors or additional inspectors under section 77(2) of the 1944 Act.

(3) The Secretary of State shall charge the persons at whose request any inspection of a school is made under this section such fees as will cover the full cost of the inspection.

(4) In this section "maintained school" means any county or voluntary school or any grant-maintained school.").

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 31 to which the Commons have disagreed and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 32 in lieu thereof.

As I said on previous stages of the Bill, the Government are very conscious of the problems which the amendment originally proposed by my noble friend Lady Young and others, and passed by your Lordships, was intended to address. The education of the children of those working in other parts of the European Community is clearly an important matter and one that will need to be addressed with some care if talented people are to be encouraged to spend parts of their career in member states. The Government are in no doubt on that score, particularly in the context of 1992..

However, my noble friend's amendment, as it stood, went considerably further than we are yet in a position to go. In doing so it also raised questions of privilege. The amendment substituted for it does not, I fully recognise, address the central problem to which my noble friend drew our attention. The question of financial assistance with the cost of education in member states raised a large number of legal and practical problems. The Government are concerned about the scope of such assistance in terms both of the schools to which it might relate and the individuals who would qualify. It is not clear, for instance, that it would be possible to confine assistance to British citizens..

All these matters will need to be thoroughly investigated before decisions can be made. I have already assured your Lordships, and I repeat the assurance now, that the Government will look very carefully at what is involved to see whether a way forward can be found. In the meantime, the Government's amendment underlines our appreciation of the role played by the British independent schools in Europe and our willingness to offer such help as we can.

Moved, That the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 31 to which the Commons have disagreed and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 32 in lieu thereof.—(Baroness Hooper.)

Baroness Young

My Lords, I have listened, as always, with great care to what my noble friend Lady Hooper said. She will understand that, to say the very least, I feel greatly disappointed in the amendment that the Government have brought forward..

In common with some of your Lordships, I went to the other place to hear what might be said on this amendment. If I may say so without disrespect to the other place, not for the first time I felt that its procedures were not as efficient or effective as our own. The amendment was not debated at all. I should like to place on record at the beginning of my remarks my gratitude to my honourable friend Mr. Alan Haselhurst, who managed to say something about the amendment when another amendment was being taken, I think completely out of order. It seemed the only way of getting the amendment referred to at all..

I express my disappointment because this amendment has had almost universal support in this House. From my own experience of the House I cannot recall so many Members having been prepared to remain throughout a sitting of the Report stage from three o'clock in the afternoon until eight o'clock the following morning, when the amendment was called. They were prepared to stay in order to speak. That was indicative of the very real support that your Lordships have given to the solution of what is recognised as a great problem..

At the risk of restating the points I made, but speaking now that the opportunity presents itself to do so at a rather more reasonable hour—it was first raised at one o'clock in the morning during the Committee stage and at eight o'clock in the morning on Report—I reaffirm the importance which I attach to this amendment. My noble friend Lord Young has been conducting a most effective campaign about the importance of 1992 and of Britain playing a real and continuing role in the new and expected common market in Europe. I support that entirely and I believe it has the support of all noble Lords. Indeed, I quoted from one of the booklets that the noble Lord has issued on the importance of that matter..

It is an absolute tragedy that we as a country have decided to handicap ourselves by not being able to find a way round what will be a perfectly reasonable question that many business people will raise when asked if they will work in the Community countries across the Channel. The big companies, of course, will pay for the education of children at British schools if people so wish it. Some business people will pay the fees because they will be able to afford to do so. However, it is just those firms we are keen to encourage in Europe—the medium sized and smaller firms and the less well-known firms, to say nothing of the self-employed—which will find it difficult. Almost the first question which anyone asks when requested to work in continental Europe is, "What about the education of my children?". It is precisely on that point that I tabled my amendment..

One must compare the position here with what other countries do to help the education of their children. France spends about £130 million a year, the Federal Republic of Germany spends about £90 million a year and the Italian Government spends about £12 million a year. This country spends no money at all. It is extraordinary that we should have this gap in our provisions. It is a gap which I think will become more evident as the years go by until 1992..

I fully accept that my amendment was probably incorrectly drafted. I listened to the previous debate on the amendment with its improved drafting brought forward by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor. That showed how important it is that amendments should be properly drafted. I agree, and in my remarks on Report I made clear, that there are great problems. As my noble friend properly said, there is also the matter of privilege. I accept the constitutional point that that raises. However, from my experience of political life I know that pressing forward with something means finding a way round problems. We all know what the problems are; they invariably speak for themselves. The point is to find a way round them. I simply do not believe it is not possible to solve what is a very real problem. Therefore, I welcome the fact that my noble friend said that she will—I think I have noted her words correctly—look carefully at a way forward..

I say to the noble Baroness and to her right honourable friend the Secretary of State that I do not intend to allow the Government off the hook on this matter because it is far too serious. I have always been someone committed to the European ideal. I believe that the chance for the world of this big market of 320 million people, quite apart from the opportunities that it presents to our own country, is very great indeed. There are opportunities for prosperity and full employment. I do not believe that any government department should put obstacles in the way of people going to work in the full Common Market when it comes to pass..

If there are not as many noble Lords on these Benches this afternoon as I would like to speak and to say very much the kinds of things that I have been saying, it is because many have explained that they are unable to be here for one reason or another. Many noble Lords are away on business. I should also like to place on record my gratitude for support during the course of this debate not only to the noble Baroness, Lady David, and the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, and her colleagues, but also to many Members like the noble Lord, Lord Benson, from the Cross-Benches, and my noble friends Lord Jellicoe and Lord Limerick with their extensive experience of business. They feel strongly and they have asked me to say again this afternoon how strongly they consider the importance of finding a solution to what is recognised to be a real problem..

I accept the government amendment as it has been tabled. It has the effect of consolidating the present practice. It does not actually advance the situation. There is one point I wish to raise for specific clarification. Subsection (1)(a) states: is situated in a member State other than the United Kingdom.

I take it that this means of the EC, though it does not say so. Not being a lawyer, I am never quite sure whether I am reading these matters correctly..

I feel it would not be an advantage if this general rule was applied to every British school from one end of the world to the other. That may be very nice for them. However, my amendment has been quite specifically confined to British schools with the EC where I believe there is now a very real need. There are other problems as regards other parts of the world, but those are different issues. I would not want what I believe to be the views of the House to be inaccurately reflected in this government amendment. Perhaps my noble friend can clarify that point after I have concluded my remarks..

Because of the question of privilege, I accept this government amendment with disappointment. I assure my noble friend that I shall return to the matter. I shall take up the opportunity that has been extended to me through a letter from my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to discuss the issue further. I believe that we must consider together, as a matter or urgency, a solution to this problem well before 1992.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, from these Benches we strongly support the noble Baroness, Lady Young, in the amendments that she hopes to bring forward. I am extremely glad to hear that she intends to pursue them later in whatever way is open to her. We on these Benches have been unswerving in our support of the development of the EC since the days of the Treaty of Rome. I do not believe that anyone else in this house can say the same. We are also unswerving in our support for the improvement of education opportunities..

It seems that the Government pay lip service to their belief in the development of the EC. They tell us how enthusiastic they are about the internal market in 1992. As the noble Baroness, Lady Young, said, it is true that the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry is pursuing a most vigorous campaign in order that the internal market should be fully developed. However, there are consequences to those stated commitments. As the noble Baroness said, one of the consequences is that if one wants people to work in the single market and if one believes that education is important and one expects people working inside the market to believe education is important, then it is necessary to follow through those commitments and to give the kind of support without which commitments both to the single market and to education sound extremely hollow.

5.15 p.m.

Baroness David

My Lords, as one who had her name attached to this amendment when it was brought forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, both at the Committee and Report stages I also express my disappointment that this is all that is to come out of it. It is extremely disappointing. As the noble Baroness said, the amendment does absolutely nothing new. Already there is inspection of schools, and so on. I hope very much, as does the noble Baroness, that there will be some progress..

The noble Baroness has decided that she is going on fighting and I am sure that she will conduct a good fight and will be successful. I do not understand why the question of privilege has been raised at this point. We could have been told about that earlier in the proceedings, which would have saved quite a lot of time and a large number of people staying up late or, rather, staying up early. I am disappointed and in a way slightly shocked. I have every confidence that the noble Baroness will go on fighting for this extremely good cause.

Lord Benson

My Lords, I share in the disappointment which has been expressed so far in this House at the attitude adopted by the Government. Those of us who have the task of finding citizens from this country to extend our industrial and commercial enterprises abroad know how difficult it is to find people who are prepared to throw up all they have in this country in order to serve terms overseas. We all know that one of the factors which is uppermost in their minds is the education of their children so that they may take advantage of higher education when they return to this country. The attitude so far adopted by the Government compares ill with that of other member states in the Community that have found it possible to find support for their own nationals in similar circumstances..

We have heard with attention what has been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper. On three occasions now the Government have expressed sympathy and an undertaking was given, with different degrees of conviction, that they will look into the matter. I suggest that, in the light of the expressions given in this Chamber not only today but on previous occasions, the time has come when the Government should do something positive to make some practical proposals in this regard.

Lord Greenhill of Harrow!

My Lords, I support what has been said by previous speakers. I make one further point. The noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, seemed to suggest that this was a matter which had just been brought to the attention of the Government. I believe the noble Baroness probably knows that the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Trade and Industry were given a report about a year ago on this whole subject and dismissed it. So the Government are not coming new to the problem. An assurance that the matter is to be looked into means that they have paid scant respect to the report submitted and the Government are starting from scratch..

I hope that the Government will respond to what has been said by previous speakers and tackle this problem. It has not only an education and trade effect but also has a big effect on parents and the relationship between them and their children and also between the parents themselves. They have the difficulty of making up their minds on what to do concerning the education of their children. I know from my previous experience in another government department that there is no more fertile ground for family breakdowns than arguments about the education of the children.

Lord Walston

My Lords, I should like to add my voice and I think those of my colleagues on these Benches to those that have been raised to urge the Government to act quickly and efficiently in favour of implementing the spirit behind the noble Baroness's amendment. I shall not repeat the arguments; they have all been made forcefully and clearly. However, it is essential for us in this country to ensure that the best people, and in particular the best younger people, are encouraged to go into Europe in order to promote our interests purely commercially, to promote the European interest and to demonstrate that, in spite of some of the things that have been done and said, we are essentially in favour of a wider and more effective European Community than exists at present..

This very minor matter of enormous importance to a small number of people is merely one indication of that willingness. We urge the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, and the Government as a whole to give as firm an undertaking as is possible at this stage followed up by firm action in the very near future to ensure that the handicaps mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, are overcome and that the spirit of this amendment can be implemented.

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I have listened with great interest to what has been said and I am grateful for the understanding that has been shown of the Government's position. I have no doubt that if, as she says, my noble friend intends to continue with her campaign, she will do so most successfully..

I should perhaps make it clear that, in being sympathetic to the concerns raised by this issue, the Government have attempted to express them frequently. Indeed, my honourable friend the Minister of State managed to say as much in her reply to the brief debate in another place initiated by the honourable Member for Saffron Walden, Mr. Haselhurst. In response to my noble friend's specific question, it is one I faced myself on seeing the amendment tabled. However, it appears that Schedule I to the European Communities Act 1972 defines member states as member states of the European Community for all legislation. That is the explanation..

Today's debate has underlined the importance which your Lordships attach to finding a way forward and has again emphasised the reasons for doing so. We are in no doubt of the strength of feeling on this issue. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, the matter is highlighted now in the context of the 1992 campaign, and it was very much in that context that my noble friend originally tabled her amendment. We shall be giving the complex questions involved in it the attention they deserve; of that I can assure the House.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

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