Football League Clubs (Hansard, 22 July 1988)

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, a working party under the chairmanship of my honourable friend the Minister for Sport is being set up to look at the principles and implementation of a national membership scheme. We will publish details of the scheme when the working party has completed its work.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for that reply perhaps I may welcome the fact that he is going to publish the views of the working party before moving to any form of legislative action.
Perhaps I may ask him two questions. First, does this proposal relate exclusively to football and to no other sport? There is a great deal of anxiety throughout other sporting interests in this country that they will be covered. Perhaps the Minister can say whether that is true or false. Secondly, are the Government going to suggest that steps of this sort should apply to third and fourth division football clubs? If that is so, many will be driven out of business and very few of those clubs cause the police anxiety as regards public disorder.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord's first question, the proposal refers exclusively to football. On the second question regarding third and fourth division football clubs, we shall have to wait until the deliberations have been completed.

§ Viscount Craigavon
My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister whether those people not represented on the working party will be encouraged to make submissions on their particular aspects of knowledge?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I am not entirely sure to whom the noble Lord is referring. However, I assure your Lordships that the Football Association, the Football League, the Home Office, the Department of the Environment, the police and an expert on computer technology will be on the working party. I suspect that that probably covers most causes.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister not aware that the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, is correct, in that the last legislation which was bulldozed through another place and then bulldozed through this House towards the extreme end of the parliamentary Session was ill-conceived 1584 and is still in some respects unnecessary? Perhaps the noble Lord will reassure us that the working party's report will be made available in time for your Lordships' House to discuss it fully in advance of any proposed legislation? To do that any other way could well end up disastrously for some of the poorer clubs, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I hope that my initial Answer made that quite clear.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, even at this late stage, would it not be possible for the Luton Football Club scheme to be voluntarily accepted in order to avoid legislation, which is always a problem? The operation of that scheme makes legislation unnecessary.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I do not believe that it is fair to try to accept a decision when we are setting up a working party or to try to pre-empt its views of alternative possibilities.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, following the earlier question, can we be assured that the working party will take cognisance of the views of those of us who actually go to football matches, stand on the terraces and travel by public transport? Therefore, we are aware of the facts of the matter, which are that there is not a great deal of football hooliganism except in one or two isolated spots. A scheme of this sort seems to me to be quite excessive.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the noble Lord is not the first to have brought this matter to your Lordships' attention and I shall bring it to the attention of my honourable friend.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, are the Government seriously proposing that it should be illegal for someone who only wishes to attend a football match once every two or three years without possessing a membership card to do so? Are they aware that football is not the cause of young male aggression but merely one of many convenient outlets for it?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the Government accept that football is not the sole cause of hooliganism. But I believe that all your Lordships will be aware that there have been the most horrific scenes over the past few years.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, following on from the last question, does the noble Lord appreciate that those of us who have followed football for half a century or more and who love the game want to do our best to deal with hooliganism? Does he appreciate that we recognise the truth of what he said on 24th June—and he said this twice—that hooliganism at football matches is a symptom of the general violence in society and must be dealt with? Is it not unfortunate that those invited onto the working party have already said they they condemn the whole scheme as impractical and expensive for smaller clubs? Is the National Federation of Supporters Clubs, which represents the people who go through the turnstiles, going to be invited? One fears that this scheme has been devised on a national basis by people who have never been through a turnstile in their lives.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the FA and the league are to be represented on the committee. I should like to think that they will be listening to the supporters of their various clubs, because they are the life blood of what is their club.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, the noble Lord referred to horrific scenes at football matches. Is he aware that much of the public disorder that takes place occurs outside football grounds? Is he further aware that introducing on a statutory basis some form of national membership scheme will not in any way prevent disorder in the streets around grounds but could drive a number of the smaller clubs out of existence?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I consider the matter in this way. If the Government were seen to he doing nothing after the scenes in West Germany we have all seen on television there would be an uproar. That is why we have this working party and why it is to produce a report.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, is it not the case that the Government have made up their mind and are asking the working party to work out the details without going into what should be done to deal with hooliganism?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the working party is set up in part response to previous voluntary attempts to deal with the problem which have not been a success to date.