Government Departments: Location (Hansard, 20 July 1988)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, departments have been asked to review the location of all their activities (which includes headquarters functions) in accordance with the policy outlined in my right honourable friend the Paymaster General's Written Answer of 31st March in another place to the honourable Member for Hazel Grove. When decisions have been taken regarding significant moves, these will be announced by the relevant Minister.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, does the Minister accept that within the Department of Education and Science there are real concerns about the conditions in its offices and that it has been looking forward to a move for a very long time? Does he also accept that both the Leader of the House in another capacity and the noble Lord, Lord Young, promised the House that they would look into the question of moving government departments out of the South East, especially in order to assist the area to overcome its terrific problems in regard to congestion and to relieve some of the demands on office space so that the private sector can function more efficiently in the South East? Does the Minister accept that unless some of those problems in the South East are cured and government offices are not left clogging-up the place, the private sector will probably jump across the Channel and move to the Continent?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I have tried to say that the Government are looking into the problem of relocating government offices elsewhere. The Department of Education and Science has not yet taken a firm decision on any further moves of DES posts away from their present location, but the matter is under review. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services recently published a report which identified up to 2,000 DHSS headquarters' posts which were potentially suitable for transfer away from London. Other departments are also looking into what can be done.

§ Lord Bottomley
My Lords, is the Minister aware that a decision was taken to transfer the Property Services Agency from London to Middlesbrough and that both the Government and the local authority spent vast sums of money to enable that to be carried out? In the event the scheme was cancelled. Middlesbrough has long been considered as a suitable area to house a government agency. Is there any prospect of that happening in the not too distant future?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I cannot give details of the PSA's plans on this occasion. However, as I said earlier, departments will be reviewing their work locations with a view, in suitable cases, to finding locations offering advantages in terms of recruitment and retention of staff, value for money and other considerations relevant to service delivery and management. I am sure that when they do that and plan to relocate work, they are required to give regional policy and territorial departments an 1310 opportunity to suggest suitable locations. Therefore, it might well be that Middlesbrough would be one of those.

§ Lord Hankey
My Lords, will the Government consider this point? Under the Education Reform Bill, to which we have given so much attention, we shall need a Ministry of Education with tremendously increased responsibility and efficiency. If the Ministry is rehoused, will that be done as efficiently as possible to produce the best possible conceivable machine to deal with the responsibilities which it will have?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, that must be one of the aims. If there is any move planned to take place, it must be done efficiently. There will always be a need for a headquarters staff of some sort in central London to service Ministers who in turn have to service Parliament.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, is the Minister aware that only a few years ago, despite the protests of resident London civil servants, we moved the Forestry Commission headquarters from 25 Savile Row, WI, to Edinburgh? The comparative rents in Savile Row are now over £60 per square foot. In Edinburgh they are between £8 and £9 per square foot. Would that not suggest that the example of the Forestry Commission might be copied by other government departments?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, perhaps I may give the noble Lord a further example of a government department which relocated in Scotland, to East Kilbride. That was not a whole government department but considerable parts of the Overseas Development Agency. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland announced on 30th June that taking account of all quantifiable costs and benefits, that is estimated to have produced a significant saving in national resource terms of some £14-9 million. Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of the staff who transferred expressed the opinion that the quality of life was higher in East Kilbride and they preferred their new location.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that when the present Government came into office they inherited a programme for relocating government departments? I know that because I was chairman of the Cabinet Committee which worked out that policy. For example, the Government chemist department was to be moved to the constituency of the noble Viscount, Lord Whitelaw. This Government cancelled the whole programme when they came into office. Is he aware that we moved two sections of the Department of Education and Science to Darlington and they are very happy there? There is no earthly reason why the whole of that department, apart from a small ministerial group, should not be moved to the provinces. They might then learn something about education.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I believe that I have covered everything so far in my Answer. This 1311 situation is being looked into. I do not see why they should learn any more about education there than in London.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, does the Minister accept that in 1979 plans were afoot to move 3,500 civil servants to the North West, and that immediately on assuming office this Government cancelled the plan? Is he not also aware that since 1979 when they moved certain numbers of civil servants out to the provinces, the Government have always paid tribute to the fact that the move has been efficient, satisfied the civil servants so moved, that conditions have improved and the Government have saved millions of pounds? Does he not accept from me that many people are showing concern that in view of the record of success achieved by decentralisation, this Government are apparently determined not to do anything or support the promises that were made to look at specific cases of moving government departments out of London?

Noble Lords
Speech, speech!

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, I did not think I was making a speech. I asked a question. I have a final question. Will the Minister give an assurance that he will look into the problem and produce a report as to the possible cost savings that can be made by moving departments from London?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I should point out that four-fifths of the Civil Service is located outside Greater London, and since 1979 some 5,560 Civil Service posts have been transferred from London under the Government's dispersal programme. In addition, departments have on their own initiative relocated well over 6,000 posts out of London and the South East. As I said earlier, we shall continue to look into the matter.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister to consult his noble friend Lord Young, who gave me figures that do not correspond with the figures which the Minister has given me.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the figures I have given to the noble Lord are exactly the same figures which I gave to him in a Written Answer on 15th March this year.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, in order to avoid administrative friction, has any consideration been given to moving the Treasury a little further away from 10 Downing Street?