Military Terminology (Hansard, 12 July 1988)

§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, the Government warmly welcome the emerging signs of a better East-West relationship. But, on the specific point raised by the noble Lord. I do not think I can usefully add to the Written Answer I gave on 16th June.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that while the first part of his Answer was admirable, the second part left something to be desired in as much as the answer of 16th June was not an answer? Can the noble Lord do a little better now? Is it not the case that the Soviet Union was not referred to as "the enemy" immediately after the last war, and that the practice of doing so arose at the height of the cold war period? I think that practice has stayed on through mere neglect to issue any instructions to the contrary. It shall probably continue to do so. I think that is undesirable.

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, I regret that I have not phrased this point in an interrogative fashion, but I only have two words to finish. Will the Minister look again at the matter and consider whether it would not be a good idea to return to the neutrality of blue or red or some such term as used to be the case?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, if the noble Lord will refer again to the Answer that I gave on the date to which I have referred, and for that matter to the defence White Paper which we shall be discussing shortly, he will see that the military capability of the Soviet Union is greater than it has ever been in our history. Who else I wonder would the noble Lord have us regard as the enemy.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that while some of us who remember the cold war of Mr. Stalin, the Berlin air lift and the blockade which that very brave man, Ernest Bevin, was responsible for knocking away, the establishment of the satellite countries by Mr. Stalin of Hungary, Poland and Czechoslovakia, and the recent rape of Abyssinia welcome Mr. Gorbachev and all that he is now saying, we shall judge it by what he does and not what he says? In any case, we do not know how long he will last.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right that while a number of very welcome sentiments are emerging from the Soviet Union, we shall have to judge them, as the noble Lord said, by what the Soviets do rather than by what they say. So far we have only words to go by.

§ Lord Mowbray and Stourton
My Lords, should my noble friend really worry too much about whether we call someone "the enemy" or not? Is it possible that my noble friend remembers that during the Crimean War the late Lord Raglan usually referred to his allies, the French, as "the enemy"?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am afraid that, unlike my noble friend. my memory does not go back quite that far. But I dare say that my noble friend is right.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, does the memory of the Minister go back before the cold war to the real war? Many of us remember the Russians as our allies and our friends. Cannot the Minister and his colleagues see the value of this gesture? Does not the Minister recognise that when, ultimately, the Government's objective of a world without arms or enemies is achieved, one will look back on this gesture as having played a real part?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords. I am not quite sure what gesture the noble Lord is referring to. But if he is referring to the Written Answer I mentioned a few moments ago, he will see that the position there is not quite as he imagines. As I said earlier, we warmly welcome the new sentiments emerging from the Soviet Union and we much look forward to those sentiments being changed into reality.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, does not the noble Lord agree that verification of all agreements is still vital to us, vital to our allies and vital, possibly, also to the USSR'? Does he not also agree that, since the end of the last war, there has been bitterness, suspicion and all kinds of ugly reactions on all sides of the so-called Iron Curtain, and now for the first time there seems to be a genuine change of attitude? Should not the Government continue, as they have been doing up to now, to encourage that change of attitude so that, if we can improve on our relations, we shall not refer to any other country, as far as is humanly possible, as "the enemy"? We refer to the Russians as "the enemy" despite the fact that they supported us enormously. They lost many millions of their citizens. Perhaps we could now show a new face and a new attitude in support of Mr. Gorbachev's great endeavours.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am in total sympathy with the sentiments expressed by the noble Lord, but one has also to reflect on the fate that befell the Afghans, the Czechs, the Poles and the Hungarians at various moments.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the Minister mentioned only having words to go on. Are this Government not also just using words in welcoming the easing of relationships between the East and the West? Would not a gesture such as that which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, has suggested of abandoning the use of the word "enemy" show that the Government genuinely welcome the easing of tension between East and West?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, there can be no doubt about the genuine welcome which the Government have given to the words, as the noble Lord has called them, or the sentiments, as I have referred to them, which have recently emerged from the Soviet Union. However, it is a fact that the Soviet defence budget, for example, has declined by not so much as a single penny in the time that Mr. Gorbachev has been in office.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, is the current Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan a sentiment? Is the I N F treaty a sentiment?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the United Kingdom is not involved in either of the activities to which the noble Lord refers. However, we have warmly welcomed them.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, does the noble Lord say that the United Kingdom is not involved in the removal of nuclear weapons systems from its soil?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, as the noble Lord is well aware, the United Kingdom is not a formal party to the INF agreement.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, following on the question asked by the noble Lord. Lord Mowbray, and bearing in mind the remarks made last week by Mr. Jacques Delors that our country should be subsumed into a European state and Parliament virtually dissolved, has anything changed since the days of the late Lord Raglan?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I believe that that question is directed to my noble friend. However, as it falls to me to answer it, I should say that a considerable number of things have changed since then. For example, we no longer have a Liberal Government.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, is my noble friend sure that we use the word "enemy"? Is it used by the Government, as opposed to its use within NATO and on exercises? Is it not a fact that in the last exercise the enemy came from the West?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am not sure to which exercise my noble friend refers. However, I think the purport of the answer which I have given is clear.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I would not refer to the enemy in the West? On the other hand, I do not think that it is right and proper for the Government to refer to the enemy in the East. Does the noble Lord agree that unless action is taken the impression will be given that the military dog is wagging the political tail?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that that is not the case now, any more than it was the case when a Labour Government were in office.