Engineering Council's Education Proposals (Hansard, 26 January 1988)

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Education and Science (Baroness Hooper)
My Lords, the Engineering Council has recently published two documents, one titled Restructuring of Engineering Higher Education and the other, Continuing Education and Training—a national system for engineering. The Government welcome these initiatives and await the outcome of responses with interest.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. May I ask her this question? In view of the work that the Engineering Council is doing in the field of education, especially among young people in the engineering world, will she ask her right honourable friend to say thank you to the Engineering Council for the great work it is doing?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, we have had occasion to say thank you already. Last week I was at the launch of a pilot project which is supported by the Department of Education and Science through a programme called Pickup which is based upon an initiative by the Engineering Council. It gave me a suitable forum for saying thank you on that particular front.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the discussion document Restructuring of Engineering Higher Education produced by the Engineering Council, one of the theme songs is the need to have more engineering students, particularly women? Is the Minister further aware that of 19,000 engineering students in 1986, only 2,000 of them were women? Are the Government going to respond in such a way that will encourage more students and more women?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that question. On all fronts the Government are encouraging the easier access of women to the professions and to kinds of work which were not normally feminine occupations. The Government have taken action to increase the number of engineering and technology places in 490 higher education through their engineering technology and HITECC programmes. The Government are concerned about a reported shortfall in the take-up of places on engineering courses; but we believe that our proposals on education reform will achieve a great deal to increase the awareness and ability of young people in the relevant subjects. They will also involve employers and industrialists.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, like many other professions, engineers and those engaged in engineering technology are going to depend a great deal upon computers? It is engineers who train engineers and architects who train architects; therefore ought it not now to be the policy of the Government that computer experts should train computer students?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, the various initiatives taken by the Government, particularly in terms of the proposals for a national curriculum, are intended to ensure that computer knowledge is widespread across all fields of education.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, one situation that we do not want is more and more engineers with less and less ability to express themselves coherently in grammatical English.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, I believe that not only the Government but the Engineering Council will subscribe to that.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the Minister aware—and I am sure the whole House will agree with this—there is a shortage of well-qualified engineers in this country, and that they are essential for the future of the country? It was good to hear the Minister say that the Government are aware of the shortfall. The following point has been brought out in a number of exchanges and debates in this House. Is it not the case that engineers are badly paid compared with other professions, and that the average wage of a qualified engineer compares very badly with lawyers, architects, the medical profession—and certainly with pop singers and other "show-biz" representatives? Would the noble Baroness say what the Government are doing to improve the conditions and pay of the engineering profession?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, I am not sure what to say about that matter since my father was an engineer. It is for the engineering industry to be concerned about pay. The Government can do all that is possible for them to do in terms of ensuring that the engineering workforce is properly prepared and educated. It is then for the employers and the industry to ensure that they get the best possible people to perform the jobs by offering the best possible salaries.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, would the Minister agree with this view? If the Government are serious about wanting to get more women into engineering 491 and back into the labour market, they have to make it far easier for women who wish to return to work to be encouraged and helped in a variety of ways. For example, the limitation put upon women going for training under the adult training scheme that they are not registered as unemployed and therefore are not eligible for training grant is a quite unnecessary obstacle.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, all I can say is that the access courses which are being supported by the Government in various institutions are designed primarily to ensure that discrimination should not take place.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, as the Engineering Council has recognised that there must be some restructuring of higher education (because, it says, of lack or resources given by the Government) may I ask when the response will be given to the Engineering Council by the Government so that it can make its forward planning?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, in the conclusions of the document published by the Engineering Council on restructuring of higher education, resources were not referred to at all. But I understand that the responses are expected to be finally in at the end of April, at which time we can assess the situation.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, lack of resources was mentioned in the document, if not in the conclusions.

§ Lord Annan
My Lords, would it not help if more universities followed the admirable example of those universities which were colleges of advanced technology and had sandwich courses for those in engineering departments? Is not this something which would bring the student earlier into contact with the realities of industrial life?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, we recognise the many advantages of the type of course to which the noble Lord refers. Our aim is to start at a very early age in inspiring young people to find interest in occupations such as engineering by involvement with employers and industry in the education process in schools and colleges. However, it is for the higher education planning bodies, the UGC, and the National Advisory Board to advise the Government on what action should be appropriate as a consequence.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the University of Essex has a highly esteemed engineering department?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, I am well aware that the University of Essex has many highly esteemed departments.