Management Personnel: Interchanges (Hansard, 15 January 1988)

§ Lord Gainford
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, the Government's policy is to stimulate to the fullest possible extent interchange of personnel between the Civil Service and other organisations, notably industrial and commercial enterprises. To help maintain the momentum of interchange, which has built up over a number of years, a promotional leaflet, The Ins and Outs of Civil Service Secondments, was published in November. A copy has been placed in the Library.

§ Lord Gainford
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. From the information he has already, can he say which of the two—the Civil Service or private enterprise—has benefited most from new brooms as a result of these transfers?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, it is fair to say that these exchanges promote better understanding between both government and the private sector, promote personal development of the person seconded, and introduce into both government service and the private sector people with particular skills and experience. In answer to my noble friend's supplementary question, I can say unreservedly that the Civil Service has benefited from these arrangements. I am sure that other organisations have also found them of great value.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, like the noble Lord, we warmly support the scheme, which we think is important. First, is he satisfied that the build-up has been significant? Can he give figures covering the past 20 years, for example, to indicate how many personnel have been exchanged per annum between industry and the Civil Service?
Secondly, to what extent is it true that disparity in pay as between the Civil Service and private business may have affected the scheme? Thirdly, does the exchange apply not only to management but to the trade unions as well?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the build-up of the scheme has been good. The scheme as we know it started in 1977. In the past eight years the numbers have more than doubled if one takes the secondments between the government service and industry and commerce, and the secondments between government and other organisations, notably such organisations as the health service and local government.
I do not think disparity in pay affects this scheme. Normally the government department will be paid for individuals it sends out and will pay for the services of the people brought in. The rule is that 1448 those who are seconded, both ways, do not suffer any diminution in the pay that they would otherwise have received.
May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, to repeat his third question about trade unions?

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, first, is the Minister not aware that this scheme was in operation in the 1960s? It has been in operation for about 20 years. I appreciate that the scheme in its present form may have started in 1977, but it is important to realise that it has been supported by successive governments over a longer period than that.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
Hear, hear.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
Secondly, I wish to know whether it is not only the top-rank civil servants and top management in industry who are affected, but lower ranks, including those who are members of trade unions as well.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, and I heard my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter also saying, "Hear, hear" to the fact that these secondments go back a very long way. As the schemes exist at the moment, the conventional secondments last about one or two years and are to enable a man or a woman to go to do a job for another organisation or to come in to do it for a government department. These range from higher executive officer level to grade 5, which is what used to be called Assistant Secretary. There are the short-term attachments, called the Whitehall and Industry Scheme, which are for about grade 5 and then there are some non-executive directorships which are for more senior management in the Civil Service at grades 3 to 5.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, I appreciate the advantages of the scheme, but does the Minister agree that, while there is everything to be said for exchange of experience between the Civil Service and industry, there are dangers in that? One thing that must be done is to attract into Parliament more people with experience in industry who wish to take an active part. Does the Minister not agree that the taking of positions in industry by civil servants, ex-civil servants and ex-Ministers can have its dangers? This has always been realised. This is slightly wider than the Question, but will he consider putting again on the record the rules governing the acceptance of directorships by ex-civil servants and say whether there are any rules governing the acceptance of directorships by ex-Ministers, particularly in industries in which as Ministers they have been concerned?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right that there clearly are dangers in the interchange scheme. Great care is taken to ensure that conflict of interest does not arise when civil servants are attached to other organisations. Similarly when businessmen are seconded into the Civil Service, care is taken to see that they are not put into positions where they would have access to sensitive 1449 information about their commercial competitors. But the noble Lord then rather widened his question, as I understood him, in talking about civil servants who take up positions after leaving the Civil Service. As the noble Lord may know, the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, is chairman of a committee which considers all applications in the very senior Civil Service levels for the taking up of outside appointments after retirement or resignation.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend add to the interesting information that he has given the House the numbers currently involved?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, if one takes the secondments between government and industry and commerce, in 1986, the latest date for which I have figures, there were 280 outward secondments and 189 inward secondments of people coming in from industry and commerce. That represents an increase of 22 per cent. over the previous year. In the same year there were very nearly 500 secondments to or from other organisations, typically health and local government organisations, of which 394 were outward and 94 were inward.

Lord Morris
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the success of the Crown Prosecution Service depends very largely on a healthy interchange between skilled lawyers in private practice and service in the Crown Prosecution Service? May I ask my noble friend what is being done about that?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, that goes a little wider than the original Question and is something that I should draw to the attention of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor.

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that to an extent the rigidity of our promotion and pension arrangements, both within the Civil Service and industry, inhibits the wider use of the interchange system?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I have not been advised that that is the case. If I find that in any way I am misleading my noble friend in saying that, I shall certainly write to him. It is perfectly true that the broad arrangements that I gave in answer to a previous question—that normally the department pays for individuals sent out and will pay for the services of people coming in with no diminution in pay—is the basic rule. In addition to that and flowing from my noble friend's question there are certain arrangements that have to be made concerning national insurance, superannuation and so on. In preparing for today I have certainly not been advised that those other arrangements are inhibiting.

§ Lord Ferrier
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the clock has stopped?

§ Lord Belstead
Yes, my Lords