Soccer Violence and Alcohol (Hansard, 13 January 1988)

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the police take the view that the control of the sale of alcohol on trains and coaches travelling to football grounds and inside the grounds has played a significant part in the improvement of crowd behaviour in recent seasons. There is no evidence available to quantify the relationship between alcohol consumption and crowd violence, whether or not lager is sold with club labels.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, I find it difficult to thank my noble kinsman for that rather flimsy reply. Is he aware that some football clubs are giving free seats to people who buy considerable amounts of named brands of lager? Is he further aware that there is tremendous concern from groups of people who deal with alcohol abuse as well as from the probation service, particularly in the North-West of England?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the answer to the first supplementary question of my noble kinswoman is no, but I shall draw the matter to the attention of my honourable friend.

§ Lord Moyne
My Lords, I shall declare a rather remote interest as a former director of a company which makes a. non-alcoholic lager. Can my noble friend say whether the Government, through the 1235 appropriate authorities, will not encourage clubs to issue a non-alcoholic lager under their club labels?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am sure that those responsible in the clubs will read today's discussions. However, I shall draw this point to the attention of my honourable friend, since there is a working group which looks into matters of this kind.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, will the Minister accept from me that time and money spent on reducing crowd violence at soccer matches is well spent? Does he not take very seriously the evidence that the danger arising from alcohol-induced violence affects not only those who are in the football grounds? It also affects communities and the transport and shopping facilities of those who live near the grounds? Will he further accept that whether or not it is a football authority, any authority which places the raising of money before the safety of the public ought to be severely chastised?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that time spent on this problem can be beneficial. Indeed, that is what has happened. A working group was set up which consisted of government Ministers, the football authorities and the police. As the House will be aware, measures were announced in February of last year which have achieved considerable success and go a long way to meeting some of the points raised by the noble Lord.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, will the Government take into account what has already been done in Scotland, where about five years ago much greater restrictions were imposed, including application to the football grounds, and as a result there has clearly been an improvement?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. As a result of the provisions in Part V of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980 a significant improvement has been seen in Scotland which has resulted in increased attendances at football matches.

§ Lord Harvey of Prestbury
My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that the grounds of football clubs which are members of the league are now fitted with video cameras?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I think that question goes slightly wide of the Question on the Order Paper, which related to lager.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, does the noble Earl, whom we all congratulate on his new appointment, agree that when in his former capacity he dealt with the drinking legislation applying to football grounds, closed circuit television proved very beneficial? In that latter connection will he confirm that some 60 units have been supplied throughout the country and that the police are at present engaged in carrying out further technological investigation into improved closed circuit television?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, when I was moved to the Department of the Environment I feared that I might miss the opportunity of debating with the noble Lord across the Floor of the House. I am delighted that my fear has proved unfounded and that we shall continue our discussions. I do not know the exact number supplied. Perhaps I may look into the matter and write to the noble Lord.

§ Lord Brougham and Vaux
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the other day at Highbury, Millwall supporters who caused a lot of havoc had been drinking in pubs before they arrived at the ground and that the police did a marvellous job of containing them without any fencing around the stadium?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I think that we all owe a debt of gratitude to the police for the tremendous amount of good work that is done in attending at football matches and other occasions where there are crowds.

§ Lord Rea
My Lords, may I refer the noble Earl back to the question of own-brand lagers being only alcohol-free lagers? Would it not greatly assist the police in their valuable work of controlling soccer violence if only alcohol-free lager were permitted under own-brand labels? Surely that is something which the Government could do without great difficulty.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord says that this is something the Government can do. As he very well knows it is not just a matter for the Government but of co-operation among the Government, the football authorities and the police. I have said that I shall draw the matter to the attention of my right honourable friend.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, in view of the encouraging Answer that the Minister gave in regard to the experience in Scotland, can I anticipate the debate which will follow by asking whether this is not another good argument for allowing Scotland to run its own affairs?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I cannot stop the noble Lord anticipating the next debate. I shall not do so.

The Viscount of Falkland
My Lords, is not the truth of the matter that the link is between alcohol and bad, and often deplorable, behaviour in the somewhat tribal and exuberant atmosphere of football grounds and journeys to and from them? Is there not a responsibility on purveyors of alcohol, in particular at airports and in the vicinity of cross-Channel ferries, to ensure that its availability is carefully controlled? The reputation of British fans abroad is becoming worse and is leading to greater violence.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Viscount broadens the scope of the Question. But he is right on the fundamental point that we are all concerned about bad behaviour from excessive drinking.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that many of the club supporters are very young? Therefore is not under-age drinking being promoted?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, there can be few greater experts than my noble kinswoman on underage drinking as a result of the report which she has just produced and which is being considered. I shall draw her remarks to the attention of my right honourable friend.