Airport Capacity: Development (Hansard, 25 February 1988)

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, we have noted the guild's views. The 1985 White Paper Airports Policy, however, set out the pattern of airport development to meet the demand for air travel into the mid-1990s. We naturally keep the adequacy of capacity, including runway capacity, under review, as does the Civil Aviation Authority, which has a statutory duty to make recommendations to my right honourable friend on such matters.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, perhaps I may congratulate the Minister on his recent appointment as president of the permanent 1289 commission set up to administer Eurocontrol. May I wish him well in it and say that the House hopes that his appointment will provide us with opportunities for asking questions and congratulating him on the work accomplished? Reverting to the Answer which he has given this afternoon, in addition to noting what the guild has said, does the Minister feel able to comment on two points which it has made? The first is that every attempt to set up a fresh runway has met with opposition from pressure groups and the best solution has been blocked. The second is that competition for funds from airfields operated by private companies must not be allowed to deny investment in new airfields.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her kind words at the beginning of her statement. I have to say, however, that the presidency of the permanent commission is something which comes up in turn among all the member states so the appointment is not very much to my own personal credit. Regarding pressure and environmental groups in airport development, it is a fact of life that airport developments have environmental implications and the Government have to take those into account. It is also true to say that in arriving at decisions about airport development, we have to have regard to the wider national interest.
So far as concerns investment in new airport capacity, one of the main reasons for privatising the British Airports Authority was to give it access to private finance. While public airport companies remain under local authority control, their external finance is subject to government control. I should mention the example of the new London City Airport which has recently been opened and which was entirely privately financed. Money is available for that kind of development.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, may I put to the Minister the supplementary questions which I raised last Thursday and which his noble friend Lord Davidson said that he would refer to the Minister for a reply this week? Is it not the case that the problem of runway capacity is mainly in the South-East, and that the runway situation elsewhere in the United Kingdom is okay? Is it not also the case that the problem in the South-East could be surmounted if the target of 25 million passengers per annum at Stansted was reached? Is the problem in the South-East not one of lack of runway capacity but of lack of safe air space capacity?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the noble Lord endorses the 1985 White Paper recommendations on capacity in the South-East which take into account the development of Stansted. The first stage would increase capacity to 8 million passengers, and the second stage to 15 million. It does not go beyond that at the moment; but there is a possibility that capacity could go up to 25 million if a second terminal is built. That would of course require planning permission. There is also a good deal of capacity at regional airports. The Government have given a great deal of encouragement to the development of regional 1290 airports. We have authorised investment of £240 million since 1979 in regional airport development, which is a high figure. We are very encouraged to see the growth which has taken place in recent years, particularly at airports such as Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow. Turning to air space, the CAA is satisfied that with the use of flow management at peak times it will be able to handle the expansion of traffic level implicit in the 1985 White Paper.

§ Lord Ferrier
My Lords, can the Minister say whether it is too late to hark back to the scheme which was first mentioned in this House in December 1967; namely, that with the present ideas about the extension of airfields there exists the possibility of reclaiming Maplin or Goodwin Sands as a site for a fourth London airport?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
Yes, my Lords. I think that it is too late to go back to those plans.

§ Lord Whaddon
My Lords, while the Minister is giving his attention to the vast demands of the airlines, will he bear in mind the cost-effectiveness and convenience of general aviation and make sure that those aircraft are not squeezed out in the rush for extra airline space?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, of course we take into account the needs of general aviation. However, we feel that at major airports such as Gatwick and Heathrow the commercial services must take priority and may eventually force out business in general aviation from those airports. We have encouraged the development of a series of airports around London in order to cope with that, and I hope that in conjuction with the Ministry of Defence there will shortly be some development at Northolt.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, in considering this matter will my noble friend have in mind the major contribution that civil aviation makes to the British economy and in particular the aid to the balance of payments for the tourist industry that it facilitiates? In those circumstances will he look very anxiously at the question of whether there will be enough runway capacity available in a few years' time?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we are the first to recognise the immense achievement of civil aviation in this country and the contribution that it makes to our economy. As regards the provision of extra capacity, the Civil Aviation Authority has a statutory duty under the Civil Aviation Act to make recommendations. Up to now it certainly has not done so.

The Earl of Selkirk
My Lords, is it not perfectly clear to the Minister that there is a great deal of unused capacity in this country and, moreover, that its concentration on London is largely in the hands of the commercial interests of the sellers? What action are the Government taking to use the existing capacity in the North of England and Scotland, something which is so necessary for the economic development of both those areas?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I think that I answered that question to some extent when I gave the figures for investment in regional airports. The noble Earl may be aware that traffic at Manchester grew by over a quarter last year and that more or less the same increase was seen at Glasgow and at Birmingham. There are therefore great opportunities for those regional airports.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, following the noble Earl's question, does the Minister not agree that a reduction in the landing charges at Prestwick, for example, may make a terrific difference to the willingness of airlines to fly to Scottish and northern provincial airports?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, airport charges are a matter for the operator. The Government would not attempt to influence the operators of those airports about how much they charge. In the case of Prestwick, the British Airports Authority will be reviewing the situation at that airport next year.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, if I may put a supplementary question, does the Minister not agree that the Government have an interest in the social problems in the South-East and that it may well be their responsibility to help with the airport charges in the North in order to relieve those social problems?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I have not noticed the airport charges at Manchester, though I suppose that I ought to be quite careful about what I say as regards the MMC report having detracted from the growth of that airport. As I said a few minutes ago, it is growing tremendously fast.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in the last two inquiries about the management of airlines coming into this country the point about diverting aircraft to the regions, including Scotland, was very carefully examined and it was found that there is a limit to the extent to which that can he done? If it is overdone, visitors to this country who wish to come to London find that they cannot land here and they go either to Amsterdam or to Paris, with the result that we lose out altogether. It is a matter of balance and I think that my noble friend has that balance right.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. There is indeed a danger that if we try to force people to use airports to which they do not wish to go, we may lose traffic to Schiphol, Paris and Frankfurt. The Government do not seek to force people to fly to places to which they do not wish to go.

The Earl of Selkirk
My Lords, when the Minister talks about airports to which people do not want to go, is he aware that that applies also to London?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I do not have the figures with me at the moment, but many million people every year want to go to London.

§ Baroness Strange
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that a great many people, particularly tourists, 1292 want to go to Scotland by aeroplane, and that it is very difficult to fly direct at the moment? Does he consider that it would be a good idea to expand Scottish airports before the whole southern part of Great Britain slips into the sea under the weight of aeroplanes?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as I said earlier, there has been a very large growth recently, particularly at Glasgow. As we all know, Prestwick has its difficulties but it offers trans-Atlantic services. There is nothing to stop somebody starting a service to Scotland.