Remand Prisoners: Conditions of Detention (Hansard, 24 February 1988)

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, we deeply regret the need for some remand prisoners to spend long periods in unsatisfactory conditions in police cells not designed for that purpose. The police do the best they can in very difficult circumstances. We are making every effort to reduce the need for use of police cells for remand prisoners. We are also seeking to improve the unsatisfactory conditions in many local prisons and remand centres through the biggest prison building and refurbishment programme this century.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the terrible facts of this case as disclosed at this inquest? Is he aware that here was a man of 32 years of age, charged with setting fire to a derelict building who was found dead with a sheet around his neck; that he was in police custody for 26 days during which time he was moved 16 times, once as far as Walsall in the Midlands; that he never had a full medical examination although one doctor suspected schizophrenia; that he had five days at Marylebone police station in a cell measuring eight feet by four feet, which was too narrow for him to stretch his arms; that he had no bed; and that he was not allowed out for exercise? Is the Minister aware that this constitutes a bigger crime by the state against this man than the man would have committed if he had been convicted of the crime for which he was charged?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I am very aware that this is a most worrying and disturbing situation. However, the coroner made no criticism of Mr. Flynn's treatment at Brixton where he was medically assessed and located in the prison hospital. The prison service is considering the coroner's recommendation that prisoners admitted to prisons for medical reports should be returned to the same prison for completion of those reports after court hearings.
With regard to the Government's determination to improve prison conditions for remand prisoners, we are building new prisons. Our building programme will have provided some 22,000 new places by the mid-1990s. We are also modernising about 100 existing establishments including almost all local prisons. We are investing more resources. Expenditure on the prison service has risen by over 39 per cent. in real terms since 1978–79; and in the immediate term we are concentrating on getting every last measure of capacity out of the existing prison estate.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, can the Minister tell us when the promised bail hostels will come on stream and whether, in view of the kind of information we have had today, the Government will consider increasing the number of bail hostels to be provided?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, it is the intention of the Government to increase bail hostel places. I understand that there will be 200 new places by 1991.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, can I ask the Minister to return to the circumstances of this case? Is he aware that this is one of the most shocking examples that we have seen of what happens to an individual prisoner, convicted of no criminal offence, in the most unsatisfactory situation in which hundreds of these men are being kept in small police cells every night of the week?
Perhaps I may ask him this specific question. What form of inquiry will take place into the precise circumstances of this case by the chief inspector of prisons and the chief inspector of constabulary, given all the circumstances of this case? Is he aware that many of us find these general replies to the problems he has defined wholly unpersuasive? We want action, given the deplorable circumstances in which this man died.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I can only stress once again the Government's very deep concern and worry over these circumstances. Of course, it is never desirable that this should happen. However, I would advise and comment on what the noble Lord has said. There is a problem here. The prison population has been growing at a quite unprecedented rate in recent years. The underlying rate of growth in the last year was over 4,500. The remand population has grown by 900 over the past 12 months. We are now therefore holding over 22,000 prisoners in local prisons and remand centres designed to hold only 15,000. In these circumstances, it is perhaps not surprising that there is some overspill into police cells of prisoners for whom there is no room in prison.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, can the noble Earl say what steps are being taken to reduce the size of the prison population? How many remand prisoners are now being held in police cells?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, we are making every effort to reduce the number of prisoners held in police cells. However, the situation is exacerbated by industrial action in some London prisons.
In answer to the noble Lord's second question, last Friday, 19th February, 1,260 prisoners were held in police cells, most of them on remand. Of these prisoners, 1,258 were locked out of prisons in the South-East. Of those, 31 were female prisoners.

§ Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that we have been pressing the Government on this point for over three years? During that time not only has the position not improved but it has become steadily worse. Is he aware that we are rather appalled at the reply he gave to the first Question, suggesting that building more prisons had anything whatever to do with the problem? It will have had an effect by 1995 but not in relation to this year or next year. I should like to ask the Minister to press upon his colleague in another place that the situation cannot continue, with matters not only not improving but becoming steadily worse.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, in the circumstances I can only suggest to your Lordships that I shall pass on the comments of noble Lords to my right honourable friend the Home Secretary.

§ Lord Wilberforce
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that in a number of remand prisons—I am not speaking of police cells, but I speak from personal knowledge—young persons who have never been convicted of any offence, and are by definition innocent in this context, are held together with other remand prisoners with many convictions behind them? This causes very great moral distress and moral damage to such persons. As a matter of urgency can the noble Earl take steps to prevent that state of affairs occurring?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I take serious note of the question by the noble and learned Lord.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, will the Minister recognise that if he wishes to see barbaric conditions for prisoners, all he needs to do is to visit 1203 Brixton, Wormwood Scrubs, Pentonville or Wandsworth Prisons? As a result of staff shortages he will see there conditions where prisoners are unable to ask for, and get, a bath or a clean shirt once a week.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I must take note of the noble Lord's comments on this.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, does the Minister detect the feeling of absolute horror throughout this House at the facts of which I informed the House and which the Minister has in no way contradicted? Will he accept that our Government are expected to be a civilised government and the conditions in police cells, as I described to the House, are not fit for any remand prisoner? Will he therefore, as a matter of urgency, ask his right honourable friend to see that conditions are made available for remand prisoners other than those that I outlined to the House?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I accept most readily and with great sensitivity the comments that the noble Lord has made, and indeed his suggestions.

§ Lord Annan
My Lords, cannot more use be made of sentencing young offenders to compulsory community service rather than sending them to gaol?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, with respect, in these circumstances I think that is a little wide of the Question on the Order Paper.