HL Deb 18 February 1988 vol 493 cc757-9

3.19 p.m.

Baroness David

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Department of Education and Science is assessing the implications for the department itself of the provisions in the Education Reform Bill for financial and other managerial delegation to schools and colleges.

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, the main impact of schemes of financial delegation will be at local level. The manpower implications for the department of implementing the Bill have been taken into account in the manpower plans for 1988–89 set out in the 1988 Public Expenditure White Paper.

Baroness David

My Lords, could I ask the Minister by how many the staff at the DES is expected to increase in the next few years? In the Education Reform Bill, are not the plans for financial delegation to schools and colleges to be referred to the Secretary of State? That obviously means the civil servants in the DES. The Secretary of State can vary the scheme; he can make a new scheme; he can agree the scheme. There is a great deal of work going to the DES.

Baroness Hooper

Yes, my Lords. The department's manpower is planned to rise from 2,501 on 1st January this year to an average of 2,560 in 1988–89. This increase takes into account the extra workload related to the Bill overall. When schemes are actually submitted some redeployment of that manpower may be necessary.

But the noble Baroness is perfectly right. There are certain procedures, such as consultation and guidance, as well as the approval of schemes, which will be taken into account. The small team in the department which was set up last November amounts to four people. I think it is not expected that that would need to do more than double.

Lord Kilmarnock

My Lords, have not the Government acknowledged in Committee on the Education Reform Bill in another place that in the case of large schools, in particular groups of schools, a specially trained person will be required to manage the financial side of things? Are the Government suggesting that the cost of this necessary training should fall on local resources? Or will there be special funds provided?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, the Government are considering what extra costs might fall to local education authorities, for example, in the training of head teachers and governors, the promotion of schemes and the introduction of new information systems, and whether any additional support may be needed. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is thinking along the lines of the possiblity of specific grant support for implementaion of these functions.

Lord Taylor of Blackburn

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether she thinks that in the allocation of finance to large comprehensive schools and other schools there could be such savings that they will pay for the administration and additional staff?

Baroness Hooper

Yes, my Lords. We sincerely hope that will be the case. Indeed, there is considerable experience already in the country, since I believe some 25 per cent. of local authorities already have pilot projects under way in this area.

Lord Beloff

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it would be a mistake to use our Question Time for trespassing on matters which we shall be discussing in great detail when the Bill referred to comes before us?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I certainly agree with my noble friend that we are likely to be discussing this in some detail in the future when the Bill comes before us.

Lord Stewart of Fulham

My Lords, meanwhile, has the Minister noted that, if we put together her last two answers, this would suggest that the policy of the Government towards education in London and the south-east is for fewer teachers and more civil servants? Is this quite what the Secretary of State for Education had in mind when he first started his grandiose plans?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I believe that the figures which I have quoted for any increase in civil servants show that it will be a very small increase in a department that is already very small. I believe that the noble Lord is perhaps being slightly mischievious in putting that question.

Baroness David

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the DES has increased or decreased its staff, and by how many, in the last few years?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I think I quoted the projected figures at the outset in response to the first supplementary question. I think that those small increases are in line with a trend which has developed over the last few years. But I should perhaps have said, in relation to the previous supplementary question, that I would like to underline that the pupil/teacher ratio in this country is at the best level ever. It is currently 17.3 to one, and it is going down.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, the noble Baroness has told us that there is a special unit in the DES to deal with this matter. Since it is a question of finance and management, could the Minister tell us to what extent the people in the team have expert knowledge and training in financial management?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I would reply to that by saying that they have adequate expertise and knowledge to deal with this matter.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether it is the intention of the Department of Education to seek the views of all the professionals in public education and to make an assessment of their views? Some of the views which have been expressed are critical and those concerned are not at all satisfied with some of the incidents referred to in ministerial statements on the reform of the Education Bill itself. Would it not be possible to see these very important people, to seek their views? That is the essence of a true democracy.

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, that is a very wide supplementary question. We have gone through a considerable consultation process since the original plans were announced in the Government's manifesto. In relation to the particular area of financial delegation, there are of course a number of authorities where schemes are under way and where there is experience. In addition to all this, Coopers & Lybrand have prepared a specific study for the Government which has been published and is available to all concerned. We have always said that the consultation process is an ongoing one and, judging by the number of responses which we are still receiving, it still it.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, will not the Minister reply to my question? She has given me her opinion but she has not given me an answer.

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I have taken note of the remarks of the noble Baroness.

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