§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to prosecute those British companies which have overcharged the Government on arms and equipment contracts.
§ The Lord Advocate (Lord Cameron of Lochbroom)My Lords, decisions regarding prosecution are for the Crown Prosecution Service and not for Her Majesty's Government. Careful consideration will be given by the service to any allegations made to it that British companies have fraudulently overcharged the Ministry of Defence on arms and equipment contracts.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether it is the case that 23 British companies have had to return over £30 million to the Ministry of Defence because of the revelation by the National Audit Office that they had overcharged the Ministry for arms and equipment provision?
§ Lord Cameron of LochbroomMy Lords, the Ministry of Defence has certain rights under non-competitive contracts which enable the Ministry to review the price charged under a contract after its completion and to secure a refund if the information on which the price was based turns out with hindsight to have been inaccurate. It was that process which was followed to enable refunds to be made.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, how long have inquiries into these very serious matters been continuing? Are they being conducted by the police? If so, will the police be reporting to the Director of Public Prosecutions or to the Ministry of Defence?
§ Lord Cameron of LochbroomMy Lords, in one particular matter inquiries by the Ministry of Defence police are continuing and the investigating officers have recently sought and received advice from the Crown Prosecution Service fraud investigation group.
The answer to the second part of the noble and learned Lord's question is that the report would, of course, go to the Director of Public Prosecutions. It is for him to decide, in the event of a report being made, what action should be taken.
§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, is it the suggestion in the noble and learned Lord's last answer that with regard to all the other cases he is not aware of any breach of criminal law?
§ Lord Cameron of LochbroomNo, my Lords, I did not imply that. It is fair to say that in one other case a report was submitted by the Ministry of Defence police to the Crown Prosecution Service. It was the decision of the Crown Prosecution Service that there was insufficient evidence to institute criminal proceedings. However, that is the only investigation of which I have any knowledge which has, at the end of the day, come to the notice of the Crown Prosecution Service.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether it is the case that over the past 10 years 36 cases of actual fraud have been reported to the Ministry of Defence police of which only two have resulted in prosecutions? How does it come about that companies can defraud a Ministry without being liable to prosecution as they would be in a normal commercial case?
§ Lord Cameron of LochbroomMy Lords, I do not have before me the information the noble Lord seeks and it does not fall directly within the ambit of this Question. I shall be happy to respond to the noble Lord but all I can say, as I said earlier, is that where allegations are made to the Crown Prosecution Service it will be for the service to determine whether there are grounds for taking the matter further by way of prosecution.
Lord MorrisMy Lords, is it not the case that for fraud to be established the intention to defraud must be proved? For the noble Lord opposite to suggest that fraud has been proved is utterly and completely wrong.
§ Lord Cameron of LochbroomMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. That is what I was endeavouring to state but I did not do so as forcefully as did my noble friend.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, is it the case that the matter is in the hands, so to speak, of the Director of Public Prosecutions, or is it the case that police inquiries are still continuing?
§ Lord Cameron of LochbroomMy Lords, the matter to which I referred in response to the noble and learned Lord is one in which the Ministry of Defence police and the Crown Prosecution Service together are continuing investigations.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, far from my making an accusation of fraud, is it not the case that the National Audit Office had taken the matter to the Ministry of Defence and that the Ministry of Defence considered that these were fraud cases? It was not on my say-so but on the evidence given by the National Audit Office.
§ Lord Cameron of LochbroomMy Lords, so far as I am aware these were matters which the Ministry of 493 Defence itself referred to its police force for investigations. If I am not correct on that matter, I shall be happy to write to the noble Lord.