§ 2.38 p.m.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what efforts are being made to reduce the waiting lists of London's hospitals.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Skelmersdale)My Lords, this year we made an additional £7.08 million available to the four Thames regions from our special £25 million waiting list fund, £3.75 million of this specifically for projects in the Greater London area. As a result, 15,000 extra patients will have been treated in London hospitals by the end of March. We are now looking at bids for the £30 million available for 1988–89.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. The fact that 15,000 more patients will be treated in the next 12 months in Greater London is almost trivial to the problem that exists. Is he aware that there is grave concern at all levels in the medical profession in Greater London? The GP must first examine the patient. Is the noble Lord aware that that takes time? The GP must recommend the patient to a consultant or a specialist. Is the noble Lord aware that that takes time? People have to go to hospital and wait in queues as a consequence. The consultants or specialists say, "We shall see you in a month's time because we cannot fit you in yet." This matter is going round and round. Despite the Minister's slightly encouraging reply, this matter is still causing grave concern right through the entire medical profession as well as among the ordinary people who need the services of our great medical profession.
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, I recognise the feeling aroused by this subject. I said that 15,000 extra cases will be treated; and I point out that in 1986 in London there were 4 per cent. more in-patient treatments than in 1978.
§ Lord PestonMy Lords, I ask the Minister whether his department has done the calculation the other way round; namely, whether he has worked out what the cost would be to reduce the waiting list by 25 per cent., 50 per cent., and 75 per cent.?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, I am not sure that I quite follow the drift of the noble Lord's question. However, I suspect that he is asking generally rather than specifically with regard to London.
§ Lord PestonMy Lords, I am asking specifically with regard to London. The right way is to take the length of the waiting list and to work out what it would cost to reduce it by given amounts. If we knew the answer to that question then we would have a perspective of the nature of the problem.
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, the Question on the Order Paper is about reducing waiting lists.
§ Lord EnnalsMy Lords, following the figures given by the Minister, may I ask whether he can give the House a figure for the current waiting lists for the four Thames regions and say whether the trend is up or down?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, the trend is fractionally up. I confirm that the four Thames regions between them account for 31 per cent. of the 403 total waiting lists. The average waiting time of more than one year in the four regions is rather higher than the national average. I cannot readily find the information on details of actual numbers. However, I point out that the concern of patients is not so much regarding the waiting lists for treatment, but the period of time that is involved.
§ Lord EnnalsMy Lords, can I therefore ask the Minister whether he is saying that the trend is still up? And is it up compared with a year ago, or compared with which previous statistic?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, the trend, as in the national trend, is marginally up.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the Minister aware of the frustration of the long waiting period for people to go into hospital? The GP says that the patient should go into hospital quickly, and the consultant says, "I wish there was somewhere we could put you because the problem is serious". I have raised this matter before. Is the noble Lord not aware that some hospitals like Northwick Park Hospital have worked out a scheme to increase efficiency and reduce waiting lists? The thanks from the DHSS was that the hospital was compelled to close a ward. Is that not abysmally absurd?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, the two matters simply do not go together. I have explained to the noble Lord that we have spent extra money through our waiting list fund. There is no possible correlation between that and regional health authorities and in this case in particular. London district health authorities keeping within their budgets.
§ Lord GridleyMy Lords, with respect to the numbers of people on the waiting list, may I ask the Minister whether or not it is a fact that in recent years the National Health Service has treated a greater number of patients than it ever has in the past?
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, yes. My noble friend is absolutely right; and that has happened especially in London. Not only are London patients treated, but patients come in from outside the four London regions.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, is the Minister aware that during the past 10 or 15 years operations have been carried out the like of which has never before been heard of, such as hole-in-the-heart operations, heart transplants and so on? The result is that the NHS is suffering through trying to manage under a system which was not designed to cater for that situation. The inquiry now being conducted is fully justified and the sooner it is completed the better.
§ Lord SkelmersdaleYes, my Lords. I would only add to that very helpful supplementary question that the problems in the acute service that the NHS faces are indeed problems of success.
§ Baroness BlatchMy Lords, is it not true that almost daily we have indignant criticism from noble 404 Lords on the Opposition Benches but from 1974 to 1979, when Labour was in power, the decrease in nurses' pay in real terms was 21 per cent.? Were those policies pertaining today not only would the situation in London be acute but the crisis in the NHS would be incomparable.
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. Overall nurses' pay has risen by 30 per cent. in real terms since 1979. In contrast, as she points out, there was a fall in their pay to the value of 21 per cent. in real terms in the five years to 1979.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is not the noble Lord aware——
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, this is an important point. Is not the noble Lord aware that the increase in the number of people going into hospital can in no way be an excuse. If more people happened to be ill in the past seven or eight years than in the past that is not necessarily their fault. The duty of the Government is not to see how many people can receive hospitalisation at any one time but to ensure, as the original Act says, that everyone is treated at the point of requirement. That is what they should aim for.
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, everybody is concerned about waiting lists, whether in London or anywhere else in the country. That is why the Government produced money for the waiting list fund, which is having the effect that I have just described to the House.