§ 3.10 p.m.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to support international efforts to secure peace in the Middle East.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Glenarthur)My Lords, we shall continue to support all efforts aimed at achieving a settlement of the Arab-Israeli dispute.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. I believe that we all ought to acknowledge the endeavours made by the Foreign Secretary and other Ministers. Does he not agree that there are in fact two flashpoints? One is the Iraq-Iran war. Iraq has signed and adhered to the United Nations resolution. However, the Gaza Strip in Israel is another serious area of trouble in the Middle East. Neither Iran nor Israel seem to be prepared to substitute the international conference table and stop the maiming and the slaying. Do the Government have any ideas on more strenuous efforts to bring all parties to the conference table?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, the noble Lord is certainly right that an international conference would be a suitable framework for the necessary negotiations between the parties directly concerned. As an idea that enjoys wide support. We are in close touch with the parties and our partners in the Twelve, the United States and the Soviet Union. Indeed, we greatly welcome the renewed United States' engagement in this matter which is of course a vital ingredient. As for the Gulf, we continue to support the implementation of Security Council Resolution 598.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is it not the case that at the present time the European Community and the United States are pursuing separate and slightly different initiatives? Is it not desirable to co-ordinate the activities of the European Community and the United States? What steps are the Government taking to achieve that?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I have just referred to the renewed United States' engagement in this matter. We are keeping in close touch. Assistant Under-Secretary Murphy met my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on 5th February. We look forward to hearing the outcome of Mr. Murphy's current contacts in that region. That is a positive step forward.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, it is probably my fault that the noble Lord has not answered my 313 question. Is he not aware that the European Community is working for an international conference to discuss these matters, which would include the United States and the Soviet Union; whereas the United States, in the person of Mr. Murphy, is working towards a different aim; namely, the Camp David agreement? Which of these policies are Her Majesty's Government supporting at present? Is it not important that these activities should be co-ordinated'?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, yes, it is important that where possible co-ordination should be achieved. However, there is no question of supporting or rejecting any proposals at this stage. There are many details still to be worked out so far as the proposed international conference is concerned and it is for the parties themselves to reach agreement on whether the initiative represents a sound basis for progress.
The United States' proposals provide for a conference to launch the negotiations by way of possible transitional arrangements. As I have said, when we hear more of the visit of Mr. Murphy to the region we may be able to consult further.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, have the Government urged upon the United States that they should now work for an international conference at which both superpowers should be present? Have they also urged upon the United States that they should now reduce their ultra-lavish support of the state and armed forces of Israel in line with their recent condemnation of Israeli actions?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, as I said, we keep in close contact on this matter. In the light of the visit which is taking place at the moment, it is important that we should consult and hear the views of Mr. Murphy when he comes back. However, I take note of the noble Lord's point.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, having been thrown out of the Middle East, first by the Israelis and then by the Egyptians, should it not be our preferred policy to stay at home and mind our own business?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, it is certainly important. However, it is for the parties themselves to reach agreement on whether the various initiatives which have been suggested represent a sound basis for progress.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I welcome unreservedly the pledge of the Minister that the Government are supporting the concept of an international conference. Is the Minister aware that at the moment there are people who support the concept of a conference in Israel with the supporters of Mr. Peres in Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Egypt? Can the Government use their diplomatic ability to encourage this widespread move towards the achievement of a conference which could lead to a totally new era in the Middle East?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, we shall play our full role in support of any arrangements upon which the parties themselves can agree.
§ Lord Thomas of GwydirMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, accepting the importance of an international conference, the most effective contribution that could be made in that sensitive part of the Middle East towards peace would be for those who purport to speak for the Palestinians to make it absolutely unequivocal that they recognise the State of Israel?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I am sure that my noble friend has put his finger on a very good point. The issues which are involved are very complex and touch on the substance of the dispute itself. However, the important matter is for the parties concerned to work out mutually acceptable arrangements for any conference. It would be wrong to seek to dictate terms from the outside.
§ The Earl of OnslowMy Lords, is it not equally true that the Palestinian question will never be solved until the sense of grievous injustice which has been done to the Palestinian people over the past 40 years is rectified? Is not my noble friend aware that they have been driven out of their homes, driven off their land, bombed and shot? Fifty of them have been killed by Israeli soldiers using live ammunition in a riot condition which, if we had done that in Ireland, we would have the whole world down our necks. That is the state of behaviour in Israel that is not acceptable to civilised countries.
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, we certainly deplore violence from whatever quarter. I think that it illustrates the dangers inherent in unresolved conflict and the urgency of searching for a peaceful settlement.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, does not the Minister agree that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gwydir, has made a very vital point with which most people would agree and that the comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Paget of Northampton, ought to be supplanted by the poet's words that:
Every man's death diminishes me"?We are always conscious of everyone who is dying in the Gaza Strip, Israeli or Arab, and the same applies in Iran or Iraq. Our efforts must be to stop the war and press for further endeavours to arrange a conference to supplant what is happening and the tragedies that are occurring in the Middle East.
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, as I have said, we shall continue to play our full part in support of any arrangements upon which the parties themselves can agree.