HL Deb 09 February 1988 vol 493 cc103-5

3.14 p.m.

Lady Saltoun of Abernethy

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have received the report of the Committee on Care in the Community, chaired by Sir Roy Griffiths, and if so, whether it will be published and when.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I understand Sir Roy is in the final stages of his work and hopes to present his report very shortly. We will give consideration to publication at that stage.

Lady Saltoun of Abernethy

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply. Can he indicate when the Government expect to receive the report and whether, pending publication, he can arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I understand that Sir Roy's report is due to be received very shortly. It may appear that there has been some delay, but this has turned out to be a much bigger exercise than Sir Roy first thought. However, the delay is not serious, and, as I said, he is now in the final stages of preparing the report.

As regards putting a copy in the Library, that would come under our general consideration of publication.

The Lord Bishop of Rochester

My Lords, can the Minister assure the House that there will be adequate time for discussion of the report by the voluntary bodies and others before the Government make any decisions about it?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, voluntary bodies and others have of course contributed to the evidence that Sir Roy has received. It would be unusual, to say the least, if the Government decided to act on Sir Roy's report by way of legislation or anything else if the voluntary bodies were not consulted.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, why cannot the Minister give a commitment to the House that the report will be published? Did he not hear from the earlier question that there is a great deal of interest, not just in your Lordships' House and in another place but among families, the community, local authorities and the health authorities? Does he not agree that this is an absolutely central issue on the future of the health service and community care? Why cannot he say that the report will be published? Is it not extraordinary that the Government will have such a report from Sir Roy Griffiths and then sit on it? Surely that is inconceivable.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, it would be equally extraordinary for any Government to give a commitment to publication in advance of the receipt of such a report.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, is not this another example of the Government's excessive interest in secrecy?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I do not see how I or any of my right honourable or honourable friends in another place can be accused of secrecy when we have not even seen the report.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, surely the fact that the Minister has not seen it is not relevant. The Government must have decided when they asked Sir Roy Griffiths to prepare the report that it would then become open to public debate as well as debate by the Government. Does not the Minister agree, therefore, that not to commit himself is secrecy?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, those considerations would depend entirely on what is in the report. As I keep stressing, we have not seen the report.

Lord Mottistone

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, when the Conservative Party was in opposition, I used to have great fun asking questions like those the present Opposition has been putting in order to disturb the Labour Government?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, it is always gratifying to know that other people are put in the same position as the House has put me in this afternoon.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, is not the Minister nevertheless aware that I had great pleasure in answering those questions and saying that of course reports would be published?

Lord Molloy

My Lords, if it is not intended that this serious subject should be examined in the country and in this House, can the Minister tell the House what was the purpose in setting it up in the first place?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the purpose was so that the Government could have an inquiry. The Government therefore asked a responsible member of the National Health Service Board to conduct it. As I have stressed over and over again, we will have to see what the report says.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, does not the Minister agree that people in the great professions will be interested? Many of them are desperately interested in this report and will want some idea of what it contains so that they can brief Members on all sides of this House who want to participate in the debate which ought to follow.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, there is absolutely nothing to stop them. The evidence that Sir Roy received is, so far as I am aware, widely available from the bodies who gave him that evidence.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, can the Minister give an assurance that the Attorney-General is not going to be consulted before a decision is taken?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, all sorts of people may or may not be consulted. I am not aware that any particular member of the Government will or will not be consulted.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that it never has been the case, nor would it be sensible to say, that every report on every matter would automatically be published before it has appeared?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am grateful for the remarks of my noble friend. Anybody listening to the exchanges in the House today could not fail to be aware of the great interest in Sir Roy's work and the concern that it should receive early publication. We shall certainly take due account of that when we receive the report.

The Countess of Mar

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his response to Questions this afternoon tends to give credence to a report in The Sunday Times of a few weeks ago which said that if the Griffiths Report was published it would never be published in full because there were a great many suggestions in it which Her Majesty's Government would not like?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I do not believe it gives credence to anything of the sort. I am well aware that there have been all kinds of supposition in the media as to what the report may contain. I can neither confirm nor deny these as I stress yet again that I have not see it.