§ Lord KennetMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what response NATO has made to the Warsaw Pact proposal of May 1987 that member states should meet "with the aim of comparing the military doctrines of both alliances".
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Glenarthur)My Lords, NATO last week concluded its consideration of the proposal. The alliance would be ready under certain conditions to address the question of military doctrine in discussions with the Warsaw Pact.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, what are those conditions and who will conduct the discussions?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, we do not see any purpose in discussion of military doctrine in the abstract divorced from military capabilities on which any doctrine must necessarily depend. However, we see some value in it on the basis of concrete information about the size of each other's forces.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, we are grateful to the Minister for that reply which indicates a constructive reaction from NATO and Her Majesty's Government. Will he indicate the attitude of Her Majesty's Government towards the Warsaw Pact proposal? To what extent do Her Majesty's Government believe that the doctrine of flexible response would be affected by such discussions?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, it is not the practice of NATO as an organisation to respond formally to declarations, such as that on military doctrine, from the Warsaw Pact. This is a matter for individual members to decide for themselves but, as I said, the alliance stands ready on certain conditions to address the question in discussions. I do not think that I can go any further than that.
As to flexible response, given the massive superiority of the Warsaw Pact, mobility is obviously essential to alliance defensive capabilities as is the ability to counterattack from the air as a means of neutralising Warsaw Pact reserve forces.
§ Lord Stewart of FulhamMy Lords, could one begin by discussing the fact that membership of NATO is voluntary and membership of the Warsaw Pact is not?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. NATO is a voluntary organisation of independent democratic nations grouped together for collective self-defence. The Warsaw Pact is none of those things.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, does the Minister nevertheless agree, despite all the stuff we have just heard, that the Warsaw Pact happens to exist and that many people believe it could still constitute a threat to this country? What is wrong with that? Does the Minister not agree that the NATO countries may want to discuss this proposition in view of the remarkable change in atmosphere in the Soviet Union? Does he not think that something could be gained, even though at all times we must insist on completely acceptable verification under any new agreement or proposed agreement?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I think that it would be a mistake to equate the two organisations. As for the point about verification which the noble Lord mentioned, that of course goes rather wider than this Question.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, is it not the case that there is no channel of communication at present 3 between NATO and the Warsaw Pact? In the light of the first Answer that the Minister gave, will the Government not consider trying to establish a regular means of communication between the two organisations so that these matters can be discussed regularly and frequently?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I do not think that that is a realistic proposition. In any consideration of a matter such as this, it is important that we be sure that discussion of doctrines does not merely provide a propaganda vehicle for the East to hammer away at Western nuclear policies and to criticise flexible response. We must guard against that. It is only prudent to establish a sound basis on which the discussions that I have mentioned could take place.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, is the Minister aware that some of us believe that the words "military doctrines" are quite ridiculous? What is really meant is "military intentions". Is there not all the difference in the world between NATO and the Warsaw Pact on that?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, the noble Lord makes a very valid point.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that the question of short-range nuclear missiles is bound to come up in any such discussions and that there seems to be some uncertainty as to the policy of NATO concerning such missiles? Can he help us on that?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I should have thought that all sorts of things would crop up in the discussions.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, will the noble Lord accept that the whole House is aware that Question Time sometimes proceeds rather quickly, even when one is not intending that? After he has had a moment to consider, will he tell us the conditions under which NATO would be willing to accept this invitation to discuss military doctrine with the Warsaw Pact? Will he also tell us who will conduct the discussions on behalf of NATO? If the answer to either of, or both, those questions is classified, will he say why?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, any discussion of doctrine must take second place to the overriding need to launch a new round of conventional stability negotiations currently the subject of informal Warsaw Pact-NATO discussions in Vienna as well as further talks on confidence-building. That is a very important feature. I do not have information on those who might take part under any circumstances.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, will the noble Lord try a little harder to answer the question I put to him?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, the noble Lord's question went considerably wider than the Question on the Order Paper, which is concerned specifically 4 with military doctrine as brought forward by the Warsaw Pact in May last year.
§ Lord Irving of DartfordMy Lords, are we not getting into an entirely untenable position? If we can have discussions between America and the evil empire which result in an agreement, why cannot we have discussions between the Warsaw Pact and NATO?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, it is not the practice of NATO as an organisation to respond formally to declarations from the Warsaw Pact.