HL Deb 04 February 1988 vol 492 cc1191-2

3.25 p.m.

Lord Crickhowell

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether there have been any significant delays in the work on the planning and provision of a second Severn crossing since the original announcement on 24th July 1986, and whether they are confident that the crossing will be completed in time to meet the traffic demands likely to develop by the mid 1990s.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, following the announcement made by my noble friend in his former capacity on 24th July 1986, consultants have been appointed to carry forward the initial design of the scheme. The results of the work undertaken to date will be presented at a series of public exhibitions to be held in the vicinity of the crossing this month. The Government remain confident that the crossing can be provided by the mid-1990s and will meet the expected traffic demand for the foreseeable future since there will then be a total of four lanes each way across the estuary.

Lord Crickhowell

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Does he recall that there was an interval of some 15 months between my original announcement and the appointment of consultants? Does he recognise that the timetable for these large and complicated projects is extremely tight and that there will be the greatest difficulty in meeting it unless a firm timetable is laid out and is met at every stage? Will he take it from me, and from those who have been involved in this matter for a long time, that there can be no doubt that there is an imperative need for this crossing to be built by the mid-1990s to meet likely traffic demands?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I recognise my noble friend's deep interest in this matter and his enormous efforts in getting it under way in the first place. I hope that no time has been wasted. It is a complex project. The terms of the appointment and the brief for the consultants needed special care. However, I reaffirm the Government's commitment to the provision of the second crossing by the middle of the next decade.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that if the traffic flow over the existing bridge continues to grow at the record rate for 1986–87, the designed maximum carrying capacity of the bridge will be reached in the early 1990s and not in the middle of the 1990s? In that event, the existing bridge would become overloaded, with all that that implies.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, we are progressing as fast as we can to achieve this objective by the mid 1990s. We shall monitor the situation on the existing crossing in the meantime and institute further traffic management measures if necessary.

The Earl of Halsbury

My Lords, will the Minister inform the House whether the brief to the consultants includes consideration of the Severn barrage scheme?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I understand not. That is a separate project.

Lord Tordoff

My Lords, in view of the enormous capital cost and the time that will be taken to write off that capital cost, will the Government take the opportunity to review their attitude to tolls on estuarial crossings?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, we have made no decision yet on whether this second crossing should be tolled or not. However, on tolled crossings, we believe that there are more pressing demands on resources than abolishing tolls and that the estuarial crossings have been promoted by legislation unique to each on the basis that costs would be recovered from tolls.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, with reference to the supplementary question of my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies, is the Minister aware that following the date referred to in the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, I have five other dates—I have the documents with me—when Ministers said that they hoped to provide this second crossing by the mid-1990s? But in each case—perhaps I may have the leave of the House to quote—it was stated: if the build-up of traffic needs it by then and Parliament so decides". What does that mean? Does it mean that the decision to establish the second crossing is not as firm as we believed? What will be the criteria for determining the build-up of traffic? Is there much point in going ahead with consultants and discussing tenders if the Government have not yet made up their minds that there will be a need for the second crossing by the 1990s?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, we have always affirmed our commitment to the provision of a second crossing by the middle of the next decade, depending on traffic growth. Obviously if traffic does not grow then there could be some slippage in the project; but there is a firm commitment to build the bridge.

Lord Parry

My Lords, will the noble Lord then convey to his right honourable friend the real urgency expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, in asking this Question, and convey to him the fact that all sectors of the economy in Wales see the rapid beginning of this project as essential to that economy? Will he please see that there is no slippage?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I have said that I shall convey to my right honourable friend the remarks that have been made in your Lordships' House this afternoon. I have said also that I hope that there will be no slippage.