HL Deb 19 December 1988 vol 502 cc1126-8

2.54 p.m.

Lord Molloy asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will arrange for representatives of the Department of Health to meet representatives of the doctors', nurses' and midwives' professions to discuss and agree on the regrading of the nursing services.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health has made clear on a number of occasions, discussions on this matter are now at an end.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Confederation of Health Service Employees, the Royal College of Nursing, NUPE and all the staff side representatives wanted to go to ACAS to have the whole matter settled but that the Secretary of State forbade management to go there? Is the noble Lord further aware that despite that management has met many of the demands of the nurses but that the Secretary of State has threatened that he will stop the money out of the nurses' Christmas pay packets? Will the noble Lord please comment?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, a new clinical grading structure has been agreed between the management and staff sides of the Nursing and Midwifery Negotiating Council following over two years of negotiations. The Government have honoured their commitment to fund in full health authorities' estimated costs with some £941 million of taxpayers' money. It is now up to the staff side to fulfil its side of the bargain and to deliver what it agreed.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, the Minister has not said why management was forbidden to join in the negotiations at ACAS. ACAS was created to stop the bitter disputes that occur in the National Health Service and in industry generally. Why did the Minister stop the principle and the process of negotiation?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, earlier mentioned COHSE. I must point out that Ministers are not prepared to meet representatives of those trades unions whose members are taking part in industrial action over the current regrading exercise while such action continues.

Lord Mellish

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the Ministry lays down that there will be an appeals procedure. Any nurse who is dissatisfied with her grading can appeal. Can the Minister give the House any idea of the number of appeals that have been made, how many were allowed, and what is the present procedure? Are the unions advising their members to use that procedure or not? And if not. why not? Can the noble Lord give more information on this subject?

Lord Hesketh

The noble Lord asks a number of variations on the appeals theme. I shall try to answer simply. We believe that there are considerably more appeals than there should be because a large number of nurses have been encouraged by their trades unions to place appeals regardless. However, we are trying to speed up the process by an arrangement of sifting so that those appeals that clearly concern a case of misadministration can be dealt with quickly and on a priority basis.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, the Minister said that the present negotiations are at an end. In global terms the settlement appears to be quite generous by any standards. In those circumstances can the Minister tell us how the Government got themselves into such a mess in the negotiations? Is it not a fact that, although the present negotiations may be at an end, in January or February or when next year's award is made the whole procedure will start again? Is it not a fact that my noble friend Lord Molloy has a point in trying to achieve some rationale in the negotiations that will prevent what happened this year happening next year?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, my initial reply to the noble Lord, Lord Dean, is to say: what a very good question. One of the difficulties that has haunted this problem for the past few months is that quite rightly people possibly have a higher opinion of their own ability than others might judge. I will be the first to admit to suffering from that sensation myself.

Baroness Turner of Camden

My Lords, can the Minister confirm or deny that 14 regional health authority chairmen have been told that most appeals will either fail or be withdrawn? If this is so, does he not agree that such a statement casts doubt upon the fairness and impartiality of the grading system?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I am unaware of such a statement.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, does the noble Lord not agree that very often folly is more cruel in consequence than malice is in intent? When the noble Lord reads Hansard tomorrow he will discover that in my first supplementary question I mentioned not only COHSE but also the Royal College of Nursing and the National Union of Public Employees. I now add to that the midwives' association.

Is it not about time that the recommendations of the 1984 review body on nurses' pay were implemented? Is the noble Lord prepared to go to the Secretary of State to ask on behalf of this House for that review to be implemented? That could be the basis of removing the bitterness that has harmed so much of the National Health Service.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I can reply to the noble Lord by pointing out that an unprecedented level of increase which equates in real terms after inflation to some 40 per cent. has been the commitment of the Government to the nurses and to the health service.

The Countess of Mar

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that a great deal of ill will has been generated by both sides, mainly because the definitions in the initial instructions were not clear? I refer in particular to the word "supervision". Would it not be a good idea now for both sides calmly to deal with any appeals as fairly as possible and as quickly as possible?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I should like to draw the noble Countess's attention to my earlier answer in which I said that a sifting process has been introduced in order to treat genuine inequality, where it has taken place, as soon as possible. This is part of the process which is now under way.