HL Deb 15 December 1988 vol 502 cc1019-21

Baroness Burton of Coventry asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will make a statement on air matters discussed at the meeting of the European Community Transport Ministers' Council held on 8th–9th December with particular reference to proposals tabled by the Commission on air traffic control and its amendment to the 1983 directive on the Inter-regional Air Services Agreement.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)

My Lords, there was some discussion of air traffic control issues but the Commission did not, in the event, table its proposals. Inter-regional air services were not on the agenda and were not discussed.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, replies to Questions dealing with the Commission and air services appear to be getting worse and more disappointing. Even the Minister had hoped that the Inter-regional Air Services Agreement would be discussed. Can he tell the House what has happened to the previous interest shown by the Commission in air matters? As regards the reply to today's Question, can we be informed about the discussion which took place in respect of the air traffic control? Does it mean that in the future this area will be controlled mainly by Eurocontrol and the ECAC, with the Commission in the background, so that all European states can be included?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I understand that the proposals in respect of the Inter-regional Air Services Agreement are still under consideration at official level.

The subject of air traffic control was discussed. Those discussions centred on whether a Community-wide approach was appropriate for dealing with air congestion. It was agreed that such an approach should not duplicate the work of other bodies such as ECAC and Eurocontrol.

I remain to be convinced that Commission involvement is necessary. It would be better for ICAO and Eurocontrol to remain in the lead. The problem of congestion extends well beyond the 12 EC member states. We are awaiting from the Commission the proposals for the second stage of liberalisation and we expect to receive them next November. I believe that the Commission's priority should lie in developing those proposals rather than possibly duplicating scarce resources by copying what Eurocontrol ought to be doing.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, we have congratulated the Minister on his efforts to establish and develop Eurocontrol. Is he aware of the serious statement reported on the radio this morning in respect of the report of the Air Transport Users' Committee which is not yet in our Printed Paper Office but which we await with interest? It expresses serious concern about the problems not only of airport congestion but also of air space congestion. Are we not in grave danger of confusing liberalisation with deregulation and the problems that that would bring forward? Is there a lack of urgency in other countries to follow Eurocontrol which the Minister is trying to encourage?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I have heard of the Air Transport Users' Committee report but I have not yet received my copy. However, I saw members of the committee yesterday evening. We share some of their concerns about the present air traffic control situation. During previous Question Times I have given detailed information about what is happening.

We believe that liberalisation should go ahead. We do not believe that the strict regulation now in place is the best way to deal with the situation. Any problems with air traffic control must be dealt with, but that does not mean to say that liberalisation should not go ahead.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I declare an interest in that I am glad about the prominence being given to the report of the AUC, but I should like to ask the Minister about an issue which concerns him. Has any date been fixed for a future meeting of the Council of Ministers in Europe? Can he also help me about a matter which 1 can never sort out? At their meetings can the transport Ministers raise matters concerning aviation in general? Or can they do so only if the Commission is kind enough to place an item on the agenda?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, the dates proposed for the new Spanish presidency provide that there will be an informal council on 13th February and formal councils on 14th March and 5th June, 1989.

Ministers can press the presidency for items to be discussed at council meetings when the agenda is being drawn, but there is no obligation on the presidency to agree. Ministers can make a statement at council meetings under "any other business", normally giving the presidency advance notice as a matter of courtesy. However, such statements are not usually discussed.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, can one then take it that the Council of Ministers asked the Commission to discussion the Inter-regional Air Services Agreement at its last meeting, or was the matter not raised beforehand?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, there are still a number of oustanding issues in respect of the Interregional Air Services Agreement. In general they concern the extent of liberalisation appropriate on inter-regional routes at this stage in the 1992 process. There is also a need for us to resolve bilaterally with Spain the conditions under which the amendments should apply to Gibraltar. It appears that the proposals are not yet sufficiently advanced to be tabled by the Commission.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I gather that the short answer is, no.

Baroness Strange

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the considerable delays experienced by those who constantly use Heathrow Airport? What will the Minister do about the flying teams of reindeer which may descend on him at this time of year?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, although the question strays well away from that on the Order Paper, I hope that there will be no problems in respect of my noble friend's latter point.

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