§ Viscount Hanworth asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether bearing in mind the undesirable side-effects of nitrous oxides from vehicle exhausts, they still believe that the development of lean burn engines can provide an adequate reduction compared with exhaust catalyst converters and when lean burn engines are likely to be commercially available.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)My Lords, lean burn technology alone is not adequate to meet our current environmental objectives in terms of a combination of carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and the oxides of nitrogen. The emission standards we have adopted will mean that large cars will need full three-way catalyst systems. For medium and small cars the combined standard of 8 grammes per test for hydrocarbons and the oxides of nitrogen is only likely to be met by vehicles fitted with some form of catalysts. First generation lean burn engines without catalysts, meeting the current standards, are already offered by two UK based manufacturers.
§ Viscount HanworthMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that helpful reply. Does he agree that we have already fallen behind many European countries in fitting catalysts? Does he further agree that, although under light load lean burn engines are quite effective and conform with the Luxembourg requirements, under heavy acceleration and at high speed they are almost as bad as existing cars?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I do not agree that we fall behind the European standards because those standards were set as a result of the Luxembourg package and will apply throughout the EC countries. As regards lean burn technology under certain driving conditions, I am not aware of the problem to which the noble Viscount refers. Lean burn technology has advantages in the ordinary course of events in that it cuts down on the contribution to the greenhouse effect by increasing fuel efficiency.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, does the Minister recall a statement made on 1st November by his ministerial colleague in another place, Mr. Peter Bottomley, when he said:
Anyone whose car can use unleaded fuel without adjustment, or after having been adjusted, and who finds that unleaded fuel is not available, will be able to use ordinary two-star or four-star petrol. He 818 will find that it will have no noticeably different effect on the engine … If a car can use unleaded fuel, it can also use leaded".—[Official Report, Commons 1/11/88; cols. 987–988.]Does the Minister feel that that statement needs some clarification in view of the fact that other expert opinion, including that of my own car suppliers, holds that such is not the case and that it is not possible for cars that have been treated or adjusted for use with unleaded petrol to run on leaded petrol without inconvenience?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I think that the noble Lord has jumped the gun somewhat. We shall be dealing with leaded petrol in the next Question. However, my information is that a car which is able to run on unleaded petrol can perfectly well use leaded petrol.
§ Lord Jenkin of RodingMy Lords, does the Minister agree that what is important is the fact that the European standard now makes provision for smaller cars to have lean burn engines? It thus saves countless thousands of motorists the substantial extra cost of having to fit a three-way catalyst or buy cars with three-way catalysts on them when the additional advantage in terms of the emission of hydrocarbons would be negligible.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, my noble friend is quite right, although we suspect that even the smaller cars will need the single oxidation catalyst—I believe that is what it is called—which is not nearly so complicated as the three-way catalytic converter.
§ Lord Mason of BarnsleyMy Lords, I wonder whether the Minister will draw the attention of joggers in London to this point? In addition to the fact that other people smoking in the office may harm them, every hour that they jog in London and take into the depths of their lungs diesel fumes and the exhaust from vehicles does them irreparable damage. Indeed those fumes are a bigger killer than is passive smoking. Does he not think that they ought to be warned?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, the noble Lord has, I think, warned joggers very effectively. We are of course committed through the measures that I have outlined in reply to this Question and through the use of unleaded petrol to improve the atmosphere.
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, I must declare an interest in that I own a Maestro car which I believe is unconvertible. Has my noble friend any good advice to give me as to what I ought to do within the means at my disposal?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, we have not reached the Question which relates to lead in petrol. We seem to be dealing with the first two Questions of the noble Viscount together. However, my advice to my noble and learned friend would be to buy a new car that will run on unleaded petrol.
§ Viscount HanworthMy Lords, can the Minister tell the House how soon he expects lean burn engines 819 to come on the market? I believe that Ford has already produced one and I gather that perhaps Rover will also do so. Can he give any information on that point?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, the first generation of lean burn engines is already on the market and being fitted to cars. Both Ford and Rover are wholly committed to this technology. I understand that these engines run on a ratio of 18 to 1 as against a conventional engine which has a ratio of 15 to 1. The second generation of lean burn engines are expected to operate with ratios of 20 to 1 or greater.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, I partly accept the Minister's reproof that my question dealt with the noble Viscount's second Question. However, his Question deals with new cars whereas mine, like that of the noble and learned Lord, was devoted to existing cars. I also possess a Maestro. I have been told by my main dealer that if I have it converted not with a catalytic converter but by tuning, it will not be possible for it to run on both leaded and unleaded petrol. As I am often in the North of Scotland, conversion may not be very wise.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, that is not the information I have. My information is that if a car is capable of being converted to run on lead-free petrol—and I shall be dealing with that matter on the next Question—then no harm can come to it by using leaded petrol if one cannot find a supply of unleaded petrol.
§ Lord Bruce-GardyneMy Lords, having pedalled around the streets of central London rain and shine for the past 25 years, day in and day out, can my noble friend advise me on exactly what these dangerous side-effects are supposed to be? Why have I not suffered from them already?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I am not certain that I can answer the second part of my noble friend's question. But there is no doubt that anything that we can do to improve the atmosphere, in particular in cities, must be good.