HL Deb 12 December 1988 vol 502 cc758-61

2.40 p.m.

Baroness David asked Her Majesty's Government:

What is their policy towards charging for the travel elements of educational visits.

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, the Education Reform Act maintains the principle of free school education. If an educational visit takes place during normal teaching time there can be no charge to pupils for the cost of arranging the visit, or for any associated travel. Charges may only be made if the visit is arranged as an optional extra activity out of school hours, in which case an element for the cost of travel may be included in the price.

Baroness David

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. Is he aware that the principle of making no charge for any travel connected with activities relating to the curriculum or examinations is very welcome? But is he also aware that field trips, for example for geography or for botanical purposes, may take the children some distance from the school and be very expensive? Will the department give LEAs enough money to fund those journeys which have not always in the past been funded from school funds?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right. The overriding policy is that provision of activities during school time has to be free but that out of hours activities can be charged for if LEAs and schools so choose. However, the Act prohibits charging in respect of activities required to fulfil statutory duties relating to the national curriculum, to religious education or as part of a syllabus for prescribed public examinations, even if such activities take place out of school hours.

Lord Hunt

My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that recreational journeys away from school premises are widely recognised as a valuable part of outdoor educational programmes, especially for pupils in urban areas and those who do not shine in organised games? Is he further aware—which I know he cannot be—that a number of heads of schools have told me of their concern lest the effects of Section 106 of the Act will be to deny those experiences to the very pupils who stand to gain most benefit from them because of a combination of a lack of available authority funds and unwillingness or inability of parents to pay?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for informing me of something about which I was not informed previously. The charging provisions reaffirm the principle of free school education. They safeguard valuable optional activities outside school hours by allowing charges to be made. They allow schools to seek voluntary contributions toward any activity, provided that they are truly voluntary. We believe that parents who have hitherto been willing to pay for many activities during school hours will not now suddenly refuse to contribute voluntarily, so ensuring that the activity can take place, provided that they are convinced that that activity is educationally worthwhile.

Baroness White

My Lords, will the noble Viscount give some reassurance to the House and to those of us who are interested in field study or outdoor pursuit centres which are run by educational trusts, usually in collaboration with a local education authority, that if that provision is interpreted too rigidly, some of those centres which do invaluable work will not simply become insolvent? I think particularly of an admirably run charitable trust centre at Rhos-y-Gwaliau near Bala which is run in collaboration with the Berkshire education authority. The centre assures me that it simply will not be able to carry on unless children are allowed to attend for periods during the school term, which obviously must include some school hours. Yet the centre does the most splendid work and so far has managed to subsist satisfactorily on voluntary contributions. Will the local authority now be precluded from doing anything?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, there is no question of the Government imposing charges on anyone. What has now been made clear in the Act is what LEAs and schools can charge for if they so choose, and what they cannot charge for. The power to charge is in all cases discretionary. Perhaps I should just tell the House that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science will be making regulations requiring schools to publish information about their hours so that parents will know whether any specific activity falls in or out of school time.

Lord Taylor of Blackburn

My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that we are trying to get a point over to the Minister and not doing it very successfully? Will the department make sure that there are sufficient funds available for LEAs and schools to continue to carry out the excellent work that they have been doing in visiting these field centres throughout the British Isles?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, I have said that my right honourable friend is producing regulations, and I think that point will be made clear when they are published.

Lord Peston

My Lords, we welcome the Education Act which made it very clear that there should be no charge for school activities. However, does the noble Viscount appreciate the paradoxical result of that measure; namely, that activities such as a foreign trip, which is the best way to improve language training and teaching in this country, will be precluded from the educational experience of most children because there is no way of charging and the local authorities do not have the resources for them? Is it not right that if there is to be no charging and if the national curriculum is to succeed, then his right honourable friend the Secretary of State must provide much more in the way of resources to the schools?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, I am sure that my right honourable friend will take note of the noble Lord's remarks. I must say that the basic feature of the new legislation is that it prohibits charges for any activities during the school day. Parents can contribute voluntarily to such activities, but it must be made clear to them that there is no obligation upon them to contribute and that the pupils will not be treated differently according to whether or not their parents have contributed.

Baroness David

My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is not only field trips in regard to geography and so on that could be affected but also trips to some theatres and cinemas which put on special performances, for instance, of plays set for examinations? I have today received a letter from the Aldeburgh Cinema which said that not only have they put on films of set plays but also performances by Ossian Ellis and Yehudi Menuhin and that the schools can claim a third of the fares from the Regional Arts Association. Is the noble Viscount aware that this sort of thing could be lost unless the Government are prepared adequately to fund the local authorities when the expense is put upon their shoulders?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, I can see that there is a great deal of feeling about this matter in the House. All I can do at this stage is to make sure that my right honourable friend is made aware of what has been said.

Lord Thorneycroft

My Lords, will my noble friend make it plain that there is nothing whatever obscene in some educational activities being voluntarily funded other than by state funds?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, under the Act the charging situation will be much cleaner and better. It will be better known to parents and LEAs than it has been in the past.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, is it not more obscene that children who might benefit from such activities are denied them because of their parents' lack of wealth?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, I do not believe that this can happen.