Salmonella in Eggs and Poultry (Hansard, 6 December 1988)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Baroness Trumpington)
My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord is referring to current concerns about infection of eggs by salmonella species. We must keep this problem in perspective. The number of outbreaks in 1988 is very small in relation to the number of eggs which are eaten every day. Nevertheless, I know that the poultry industry accepts its responsibility to consumers to reduce to an absolute minimum the number of salmonella organisms present in or on food. This task is being tackled energetically by the industry in co-operation with the government departments involved.

§ Lord Hunter of Newington
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I am sure that she is aware that the retailer/producer does not have to be licensed at present. I believe that that is in line with Common Market legislation so that people with a few hens producing a few eggs are not involved. There is substantial activity in this country under that heading, with such people producing perhaps 1,000 turkeys for Christmas dinner or 100 eggs a day. What do the Government propose to do about the unlicensed retailers/producers?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, under the zoonoses order salmonella isolates have to be reported to the state veterinary service, which is doing excellent work in investigating every salmonella enteritidis incident and advising the producer concerned how he can best deal with the incidents on his farm. Representatives of MAFF and industry have drawn up a voluntary code of practice for poultry health scheme members for the control of salmonella in breeding flocks. That code will be distributed today. We have urged the industry's leaders to ensure that its members act on this matter without delay.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the chance of catching a salmonella infection from eggs has been put in the range of 1:200 million or 1:300 million? Does she recall that when we had a debate in the House on agricultural research and development on 10th November she said that there was no intention to cut funding for work related to 476 food safety and particularly with regard to salmonella in poultry? Will she be good enough to reconcile that statement with the fact that the unit at the Institute for Food Research in Bristol, which is nearest to finding a system to prevent salmonella in eggs and poultry, is to be shut next March as a result of government cuts?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, on the first part of the noble Lord's question, about 9 billion eggs a year are consumed. There have been 46 reported outbreaks of salmonella; 46 reports are 46 too many. However, I still say that we should keep the matter in perspective. With regard to research, MAFF commissions over £1 million of research each year into the microbiological safety of food, including salmonella. I have a great deal more information about which I can write to the noble Lord should he wish. With regard to the closure of the salmonella project at Bristol, it has been decided that the work on the manipulation of microbial flora of the gut of young chickens should cease from April 1989 as the work is at the stage where it is ready for the industry to develop. A commercial company has expressed interest in taking that work further. Government financial support for the work will not be lost; it will be diverted to other important microbiological research. The redeployment of the staff involved is being considered by their employers; namely, the AFRC.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, would it not be better if the Government stopped eating their eggs curried!

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, it is safe for my noble and learned friend to eat eggs provided they are properly cooked—no matter what recipe he uses.

§ Lord Gallacher
My Lords, in the matter of advice to the public on food safety, although I recognise that the primary responsibility rests with the Department of Health, does not the noble Baroness agree that her ministry has a major interest as well? Does not some of the confusion which arises from time to time, not merely about salmonella and eggs but about other commodities, stem from the fact that the liaison between the Department of Health and her ministry is perhaps not as close as it might be? As a consequence, when statements are made by one ministry, they may not have the same degree of emphasis as statements made by another ministry.
To guard against this in future and in order to help both the consumer and the producer, will the noble Baroness invite both her Minister and the Secretary of State for Health to consider the possibility of making joint statements in the names of both Ministers whenever food safety is involved?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I wish to assure the noble Lord that my ministry and the Department of Health are working extremely closely together. The Parliamentary Secretary of MAFF was sitting beside the Secretary of State for Health yesterday in the House of Commons in order to reinforce that fact. I have every confidence that the two 477 departments will continue to work hand in glove on this matter.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, is the Minister aware that Her Majesty's Government have been cutting back their financial contribution to poultry products research? The Bristol Poultry Breeders' Association has made them aware of that fact. We are very concerned. The industry expressed its concern to the ministry and said that the quality of poultry and poultry products would suffer. Has this not happened? Therefore are not Her Majesty's Government partly responsible for the rise in salmonella poisoning in this country?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I must tell your Lordships that work on salmonella and chickens and eggs generally is strategic research and will continue.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, is the Minister aware, and will she not confirm, that the whole story has been blown up out of all proportion by her colleague, Mrs. Edwina Currie? What I want to know is what the heck we are going to do with a woman like that.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I thought of various cute replies to the noble Lord's question, but I think I shall duck this one!

§ Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, on Channel 4 last night it was stated that an ingredient of chicken feed is dead chicken. Is that true? Does the Minister think that that is desirable or right? Also, since producers of free-range eggs are not licensed, is she satisfied that a great many producers of free-range eggs feed their chickens with uncooked domestic kitchen scraps which may be hatching the salmonella?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, with regard to chickens being fed bits of chicken, the recycling of animal protein in the protein processing plants is covered by the Diseases of Animals (Protein Processing) Orders. The rendering involved utilises high temperatures which will kill salmonella organisms.
With regard to salmonella entering the eggs in the poultry production chain via feed in general, which would cover the noble Lady's other point, it is possible that home produced or imported feedstuffs can be contaminated with salmonella. Producers should demand that feedstuffs should be prepared in a way which minimises the risks of salmonella contamination. There are various orders which require that protein derived from animals and intended for inclusion in the feedstuffs should be free of salmonella.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, in her initial reply to the noble Lord, Lord Hunter of Newington, the noble Baroness said that this problem was being tackled energetically. Can she tell the House precisely what that means? By whom is it being tackled energetically and what action is being taken?
478 In relation to another part of the noble Lord's question, can the noble Baroness say how many unlicensed hatcheries there are in this country and whether the Government propose to give them authority to sell chicks as before?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, with regard to the last part of the noble Lord's question, representatives of the egg industry and MAFF have produced a preliminary draft code of practice for egg producers. It is hoped to finalise the code later this week. The MAFF veterinary investigation service will initiate a winter advisory campaign for the control of salmonellosis by commercial poultry and egg producers, and that includes producers who are not members of the poultry health scheme.
We are carrying out a whole lot of scientific studies; we have produced a code of practice. It will he highly advisable that egg producers should follow the code of practice in their own interests. We shall be taking whatever other steps are necessary in the light of circumstances as they are revealed. Our veterinary service is doing a splendid job whenever a case is reported to it, as is the Public Health Laboratory in the Department of Health.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, in order to complete the statistical picture before we leave the subject, is the Minister able to say from figures in the Government's possession how many people in this country were struck by meteorites last year?

§ Baroness Trumpington
Well, my Lords, I know that I am meant to answer for the Government, but off the top of my head, none.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, the noble Baroness has described the relationship between the two relevant ministries as a hand in glove relationship. Is that appropriate in the circumstances?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, it is better than a chicken and egg situation.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, how will the code of guidance that the Minister mentioned be monitored?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, as I understand it, codes of practice in themselves cannot be enforced in court. But if one of our inspectors found that a producer was acting against the code of practice that, as I understand it, could be brought into evidence in a court case.

§ Lord Somers
My Lords, will the noble Baroness say whether any scientific tests have been carried out to prove that there is a greater source of danger from battery produced eggs than from free range eggs?

§ Baroness Trumpington
No, my Lords.