§ 3 p.m.
§ Lord ShackletonMy Lords, I beg leave to ask Her Majesty's Government a Question of which I have given private notice, namely:
Whether they have agreed with the Canadian Government a date until which the invitation to the United Kingdom to participate in RADARSAT remains open.
§ The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Lord Young of Graffham)My Lords, there is no specific deadline. We have to set our decision within the context of other decisions on earth observation policy particularly within the European Space Agency. Although the Canadians did ask for a United Kingdom decision by the end of March, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster wrote to them last month explaining that we could not give them a decision until early April. I understand that the Canadian Minister involved is still considering the position and we shall inform him of our decision very soon.
§ Lord ShackletonMy Lords, does the Minister, whom I certainly would not accuse of deliberately misleading the House, agree that in effect it might have been better if he had said that during the debate instead of saying (at col. 827 of Hansard for 30th March):
we shall respond to the Canadian Government in good time. The time is not tomorrow night",since every communication to the Government has made clear that the time was tomorrow night? Is the Minister just relying on goodwill? Has he received any communication from the Canadian Government postponing the 31st March deadline? The situation is wrapped in mystery. Has there been any communication at all?
Lord Young of GrafthamMy Lords, as I told the noble Lord in a letter which I wrote to him on Friday 918 and which he received this morning, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster wrote on the 21st March to his opposite number, Mr. Oberle. We saw the High Commissioner on that day and told him. We understand from the Office of the High Commissioner in London, that they have been perfectly well aware of the position all the time.
We shall not be pushed into a decision by a fit of enthusiasm. We have before us three different radar satellites to consider. Decisions will be made by the time that the next relevant ESA meeting takes place on the 18th April. The Canadian authorities are aware of that. I did not mislead your Lordships' House. Indeed, had I done so in any way either expressly or by implication I should have been here to apologise.
§ Lord Williams of ElvelMy Lords, it is still unclear whether the Canadian Government at any time or at any level, ministerial or official, imposed the deadline to which my noble friend has referred. Did they do so and did the Government renegotiate that deadline? Has that deadline now passed? Are we awaiting a decision on the polar platform, the deadline for which is very close now, so that the two decisions can be announced together? What exactly is the situation?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, the position is very simple. Many months ago the Canadian Government said that they would have liked to have heard of our decision by the end of March. In good time my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy wrote to them and said that because of other considerations it would not be possible for us to comply with their request; but that we would let them know by the middle of April. All the indications confirm that they have accepted that position. They are waiting for us to come back to them. We shall make up our minds in good time after we have considered all the implications. We shall do so by the time of the ESA meeting. That is exactly what I said to your Lordships' House. The time is not tomorrow night. So far as we are concerned there was no deadline for the 31st March, and I stand by that to this moment.
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, while no one would wish the Government to come to an ill-considered decision, may I ask whether my noble friend is aware that the apparent delay in making a decision gives the impression that there are vital differences within our own departments? If that is so and they are allowed to grow by further delay, it will mean that the decision whenever it is made will not have quite the same force that it would have had if it had seemed to be more acceptable generally to all the departments concerned.
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, I can assure my noble friend that I am constantly aware that the funds which I dispense are not mine but belong to the taxpayers. In looking at all these matters we are very conscious that we have priorities before us. Indeed, in this period of questioning we have seen the cost of the Columbus platform come down very considerably. 919 That reduction I suspect would not have come about had not my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy queried those costs.
Before us we have three overlapping satellites, all of them involved in radar and looking at similar matters. It is in the interests of the taxpayer that the Government should consider them in an orderly manner before making a decision. We have told the Canadians by when we hope to decide, and ESA knows by when we wish to decide. There is not the slightest conflict within the Government about that decision. We shall take our decision and I shall then be quite happy to come to your Lordships' House and inform it of that decision.
§ Lord ShackletonMy Lords, indeed the Minister has now written to me. Perhaps first of all, I should like to acknowledge with appreciation his expression of regret. I feel it is characteristic that he does so regret. Undoubtedly we were misled; but I do not accuse him of doing it.
§ Lord Young of GraffhamExcuse me, my Lords, but I regretted nothing. I have denied that I misled your Lordships' House, and I stand by each and every word I said. To put the record absolutely right, I said to the noble Lord that if I had misled him, I should have been the first to come here and explain.
§ Lord ShackletonOf course my Lords, I withdraw my remark. I just hoped that the Minister would come a bit cleaner, that is all.
§ Lord ShackletonMy Lords, it is within the knowledge of the House that it was deceived.
§ Lord ShackletonMy Lords, the noble Lords whom you can hear all agree with that. There is a large number—
§ Lord ShackletonYes there was my Lords. However, I say that the Minister did not do it deliberately. Since he has now said that it seems unlikely that the UK will participate in RADARSAT, would it not be the decent thing to say so now, so that the Canadian Government are not involved in this rather curious exchange?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, the noble Lord really must not let his enthusiasm for the subject carry him away. In the debate before the Easter break I said to your Lordships' House (at col. 827 of Hansard)—and I quote my words again:
we shall respond to the Canadian Government in good time. The time is not tomorrow night; we have longer than that".The words that I used were as right then as they are today. They were based on information which I had then and which I have today. For all the pressure in the world we shall not change our decision. We shall 920 consider the three satellites and will make an announcement in good time for the ESA meeting, which I believe is to take place on 18th April.