HL Deb 23 November 1987 vol 490 cc409-10

2.42 p.m.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether Lord Glenarthur's statement (H.L. Deb. 18th November, col. 278) that "we should never be the first in any circumstances to use nuclear weapons" constitutes a formal change of government policy, and if so whether it has the approval of NATO.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Glenarthur)

My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, NATO is a defensive alliance and is committed against the first use of any weapons. We would only respond if attacked. It was to this that I intended to refer. NATO's strategy for use of nuclear weapons has been and remains based on flexible response.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, was not the gap between the intention to refer to one thing and the action of referring to a quite different thing a fairly broad one? Ought not the noble Lord to have come to the House the next day to make a personal statement?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, it certainly was a slip of the tongue and I apologise. The noble Lord had put down his Question before it was possible to determine whether or not to make some kind of statement.

Lord Mellish

My Lords, the noble Lord need not worry about making a slip of the tongue. These are words which in principle all governments of this country have supported. As far as we are concerned, is the noble Lord aware that this sort of Question is irrelevant?

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, what the noble Lord actually said was that we should never be the first in any circumstances to use nuclear weapons. If that is not the Government's policy, will he say so? Is he aware that it ought to be the Government's policy, and will he recommend that policy to the Government?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I have already explained what the Government's policy is; what in the assessment of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, it should be, is something completely different.

Lord Beloff

My Lords, in view of the fact that deterrence depends very largely on creating uncertainty, is it not undesirable that Her Majesty's Government should be pressed to make statements on matters of this kind?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, of course my noble friend is quite right. Any aggressor against NATO should not be able to predict what he will face.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it would be a wonderful thing if the Soviet Union would also say that it would not be the first to use nuclear weapons in any conflict?

Lord Jenkins of Putney

It has said it.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, if it has, will he not further agree that although Mr. Gorbachev may not yet have done everything we would like him to do he has made remarkable progress? It is perhaps in this context of nuclear weapons and the prevention of war in Europe that we might reach some new agreement.

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, the main point is that NATO is a defensive alliance.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, the noble Lord would not doubt (would be?) that the Soviet Union has made that very undertaking never to be the first to use nuclear weapons.

Lord Glenarthur

No, my Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. But the Soviet military are well aware that without the NATO nuclear deterrent their conventional forces would constitute an overwhelming threat to us.