Lords Sitting of 5 November 1987

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Southwark): The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Duke of Roxburghe The Duke of Roxburghe—Took the Oath.

European Consumer Affairs Council
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what items are to be discussed by the European Consumer Affairs Council at their meeting on 10th November, what is the Government's position thereon and what progress they expect to make.
Lord Beaverbrook: My Lords, I regret that the Consumer Affairs Council scheduled for 10th November has been postponed, and that a new date has not yet been fixed.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, I regret the cancellation of the Consumer Affairs Council and the failure of the Commission to bring forward papers in good time for it. Am I correct in assuming that two items down for definite discussion on the agenda were toy safety and unit pricing? I should like to ask the Minister whether he has in his brief a notice to the effect that on 16th July the Minister told the House that he would look into the ineffectiveness of consumer consultation in the Community and whether he has been able to do so.
Lord Beaverbrook: My Lords, I believe that the two items mentioned by the noble Baroness were to have been on the agenda. The Government believe it is important that a full-day Consumer Affairs Council meeting should take place at least once during a Presidency. We hope that the present Presidency will be able to arrange a meeting of the council before the end of the year.
As regards the question which the noble Baroness put to my noble friend in July, my noble friend has reviewed the question as promised. He shares the anxiety of your Lordships' House to see an effective consultation mechanism in Brussels and awaits developments with interest. However, specific reforms are a matter for the Commission. I was pleased to learn that, at working level, the Commission has recently expressed a broad interest in examining measures to help the negotiating position of consumers.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: My Lords, on the assumption that a new date will be found for the meeting, will the Minister say what consultations have taken place with the National Consumer Council and the Consumers Association in preparation for the meeting?
Lord Beaverbrook: My Lords, as the noble Baroness will know, there are procedures for consultation but the Government accept that the present consultation arrangements are not satisfactory. The Council resolution adopted last year underlined the necessity for effective and duly representative consultations with consumers. Although the Government have no standing to intervene directly in an area which is the Commission's own responsibility, they want to see a credible package of improvements emerging in line with the resolution, when the Commission reports on the matter at the end of this year.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, as regards the date of the next meeting, I should like to ask the Minister whether it is not now the custom to hold a Consumer Affairs Council under each Presidency. If that is so, and as the Danish Presidency ends on 31st December, will the Minister ask the Secretary of State whether he can bring pressure on the Commission to get on with its business and fix a date before the end of the year?
Lord Beaverbrook: My Lords, I can inform the noble Baroness that my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Corporate and Consumer Affairs hopes to raise the matter with Commissioner Varfis next week on 10th November.
Lord Sainsbury: My Lords, will the Minister tell the House how long the toy safety draft directive has been in the pipeline?
Lord Beaverbrook: My Lords, it seems a long time but I cannot remember precisely how long. I shall look into the matter and write to the noble Lord.

Control of Weeds: Insects Proposal
3.5 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will sponsor a study of the use of insects to reduce and control bracken, ragwort and other persistent but unwelcome weeds.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Baroness Trumpington): My Lords, I can confirm that my department has already decided to fund a study, as compared with existing methods. The study will be carried out by the University of York which is currently investigating the potential of a number of so-called biological control agents of bracken. Existing measures such as herbicide application and ploughing are adequate to control ragwort and other weeds.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend for that satisfactory reply. As

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pesticides have decimated insects and other small organisms in the countryside without discrimination, is there not now a case for encouraging selected species which have the benign characteristic of destroying those weeds that are the most difficult to keep under control?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, yes and no.
Lord John-Mackie: My Lords, I hope that I get a better answer than that. Is the noble Baroness aware that there is nothing new in predators dealing with pests and weeds? Today, unfortunately, the weeds and pests are on top of the situation. One would need to breed an awful lot of predators to deal with them—particularly bracken.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, yes. That is one of the reasons why tests are being carried out. It is said that bracken is spreading at the rate of 1 per cent. each year. It is normally avoided by animals because they can be made ill and possibly die as a result of eating it. On the other hand, nobody would want to eliminate bracken entirely. It provides variety to the landscape and cover for wildlife such as deer and grouse. It is harvested for fuel.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that imported pests may be necessary to control bracken? In that case, does she know what the NCC might say, bearing in mind the powers of the Government to restrict imports of pests and bugs under the 1981 Act?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, the tests are being carried out on caterpillars of the South African moth, one of the Panatima genus and the other named Conservulus insignia. Under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 it is an offence to release any animal not normally resident in Great Britain without a licence from the Secretary of State for the Environment.
Lord Glenamara: My Lords, will the noble Baroness bear in mind the fact that the history of using insects to control plants or other insects shows that it is a hazardous process and almost always ultimately leads to an environmental catastrophe of some kind or other?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, yes. But there have been successful cases including the introduction of South American moths to control prickly pear cactus in Australia and ladybirds to control pests in Californian citrus orchards. In other cases, the control organisms have succumbed to unfamiliar climatic conditions, or have died out as a result of their own success.
Baroness Hylton-Foster: My Lords, has the noble Baroness any knowledge of the caterpillar which specialises in eating bracken and does no harm to anyone? I think that this caterpillar has been used in Australia.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, the only one that I know about is the South African kind.
Lord Ferrier: My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is possible to control the spread of ragwort by grazing sheep on an infected field in the month of May?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, quite a lot of things happen in the month of May.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her first very satisfactory Answer. Perhaps I may also add my admiration for her second reply to me which, although somewhat ambiguous, fulfilled the wish that your Lordships expressed in the debate yesterday—namely, the desire for brevity in replies from the Front Bench. May I further ask my noble friend whether she is aware that one does not have to go abroad, because it was only 30 years ago that the larva of the cinnabar moth, which is indigenous to this country, kept ragwort under control in many areas?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend, but unfortunately natural predators tend to keep the numbers down.
Lord Carter: My Lords, does the Minister agree that this is just the kind of research that should be undertaken in the public sector? Is she aware that some people have expressed considerable concern that if the department's new-found enthusiasm for industry funding of agricultural research goes too far, the multinational chemical and spray companies may not be prepared to put their full weight behind such research?
Baroness Trumpington: I take note of the noble Lord's statement, my Lords.

EC Own Resources Increase Proposal
3.11 p.m.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will take steps to ensure that prior to any meeting of the Council of Ministers of the European Communities convened to propose an increase of the Community's own resources from the rate of 1.4 per cent. as agreed in Article 3 (para. 2) of the Council decision (85/257/EEC Euratom) of 7th May 1985 to 1.6 per cent. on 1st January 1988 as envisaged in para. 9 of the preamble to that decision they will seek the consent of Parliament, with due debate, for any such increase or change either above or below the 1.6 per cent. referred to.
Lord Beaverbrook: My Lords, under the terms of the Treaty of Rome, the system of own resources cannot be changed without the approval of the British Parliament.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, in those circumstances, I take it that the noble Lord is able to give me a direct reply to my Question regarding whether the British Parliament will be consulted. That being the case, will the noble Lord take note of the fact that the sentiments currently being expressed about a revision to the Community's own resources as enshrined in the original directive were precisely the same farcical explanations that were given prior to the meeting at Fontainebleau itself? Will he take due note of that and also of the use of creative accounting and figure fiddling by the European Commission?
Lord Beaverbrook: My Lords, I am not entirely clear about what is meant by the noble Lord's phrase "creative accounting" in that context. There is a very carefully set out and complicated formula for calculating the contributions to the Community budget. In answer to the noble Lord's first Question, I think I should further confirm that, under the Treaty of Rome, the own resources system, which is defined in a Council decision, can only be changed following both unanimous agreement by the Council and subsequent adoption by Member States according to their own constitutional requirements. In this country, that means approval by Parliament.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, will there be a debate before the decision is made by the Government and becomes reflected in the Council's proceedings?
Lord Beaverbrook: My Lords, that would be a matter for the usual channels at that time. However, I have good news for the noble Lord, in that a debate in your Lordships' House on the report on financing the Community produced by your Lordships' Select Committee on the European Communities will take place on Monday, 9th November. He is no doubt aware of that.

Geneva Convention: 1977 Protocols
3.14 p.m.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government which governments have ratified the 1977 Geneva protocols additional to the 1949 convention; whether they have yet, as promised by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, in March 1986, resolved their doubts about the protocols, and, if so, why they have not announced their decision.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Glenarthur): My Lords, as at 21st August 1987, 25 states had ratified one or both of the 1977 protocols additional to the Geneva convention of 1949, and a number of others had acceded to them. I have arranged for a complete list to be placed in the Library of the House. Consultations with our allies are now well advanced. We expect this process to be completed within the coming year, so enabling us to take a decision on the ratification of the protocols.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. Does he agree that this matter appears to have taken an unconscionably long time, especially having regard to the fact that the original protocols protected civilians generally and therefore the additional protocols to protect them against nuclear weapons hardly seem to have been necessary? What was the reason for the long delay and the great difficulty in coming to a conclusion on this matter?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, our policy is not to become party to binding legal instruments until we are quite sure that they are in accord with other commitments and obligations, and we must ensure that the new obligations which these protocols introduce can be fully met.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, I recognise that the Geneva protocols are a very important landmark and welcome the Minister's observations about the progress that is being made. However, does he agree that in practical terms the meeting between President Reagan and Mr. Gorbachev promises an even greater achievement? Will Her Majesty's Government give their full support to the signing of the new INF Treaty as a big step in the process of nuclear arms reduction?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, naturally we support wholeheartedly any attempts to reduce the INF and note the proposals referred to by the noble Lord. I think he will be aware, however, that they do go rather wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

Land Registration Bill [H.L.]
Lord Templeman: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to amend Section 112 of the Land Registration Act 1925 and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Lord Templeman.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Norfolk and Suffolk Broads Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and referred to the Examiners.
Aberdeen Harbour Order Confirmation Bill
Considered on Report.

Farm Land and Rural Development Bill [H.L.]
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Compared with most of the Bills that will be coming to your Lordships' House this Session, this is a small Bill; but, in my view, small is beautiful and the

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measures contained in the Bill are of importance to farmers and the agricultural scene of the future. I know that very many noble Lords take a keen personal interest in rural affairs and have considerable experience in matters such as woodlands, and I am therefore opening this debate with a little nervousness, mixed of course with pleasure. Perhaps I may add that my pleasure is increased by the fact that my noble friend Lord Borthwick has chosen this Bill as a vehicle for his maiden speech.
Let me first place this Bill in the context of the Government's policies for the countryside. Although the details of the schemes will be set out in secondary legislation, they are not strictly the subject of today's debate. Nevertheless, today I can give you some information which I hope will assist your Lordships in consideration of this Bill.
As background to the Bill, I should like to remind your Lordships of a Statement made on 9th February this year by my right honourable friend the then Minister of Agriculture, and repeated in this House by my noble friend Lord Belstead. In his Statement he said:
"With the European Community now producing surpluses in many of the main agricultural commodities, a new balance of policies has to be struck, with less support for expanding production; more attention to the demands of the market; more encouragement for alternative uses of land; more response to the claims of the environment; and more diversity on farms and in the rural economy".
My right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture in another place went on to announce a series of initiatives which the Government were taking to assist the process of change, which were spelt out in more detail in the farming and rural enterprise package published on 10th March. Those included proposals for a farm woodland scheme; an expansion of the traditional forestry programme with a higher proportion of planting on low ground of better quality than hitherto; an increase in the number of environmental sensitive areas; a scheme to encourage diversification of enterprise on farms; greater emphasis on the possibilities for novel crops in the Ministry's budget for research, development and advice; and parallel changes in the policies of the Secretary of State for the Environment.
The Government have since taken steps to implement all of the measures in that package for which powers already exist. The purpose of this Bill is to provide powers for us to implement the remaining measures; in particular, the making of a scheme to assist the marketing of the products of diversified farm businesses and the making of a farm woodland scheme.
This brings me to the content of the Bill. Clause 1 provides powers for agriculture Ministers, with the approval of the Treasury, to make a scheme of grants in respect of certain farm businesses carried on ancillary to agricultural businesses for any one or more parts of Great Britain. An Order in Council can be made under Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 1974 (c.28) enabling the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to make a similar scheme there. Such a scheme may provide for the payment of grant
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towards expenditure of a non-capital nature incurred in the establishment, expansion and promotion of a farm business and in the marketing of its goods or services. The clause also enables Ministers to lay down provisions in the scheme regarding the conditions under which grants may be made and confers discretion on Ministers as to approvals and the amounts and timing of payments.
Clause 2 of the Bill provides powers for agriculture Ministers, with the approval of the Treasury, to make a scheme of grants in respect of farm woodlands for any one or more parts of Great Britain. Such a scheme may provide for the payment of grants to owners and lessees of land towards, first, expenditure incurred or to be incurred in the conversion of agricultural land to woodland; for simplicity, I shall use the term "planting grants", which is what we are talking about; and, secondly, towards abating any financial loss resulting from that conversion. These grants may continue over a period of years during which no income could be expected from the land in question. Again, for simplicity, I shall refer to them as annual payments.
As in the case of Clause 1, this clause enables Ministers to lay down provisions in the scheme regarding the conditions under which grants may be made and confers discretion on Ministers as to approvals and the amounts and timing of payments. The clause as a whole relates only to Great Britain, because the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland already has the necessary powers to make both the kinds of payments that I have described. This means that any scheme will be able to apply throughout the United Kingdom.
Clause 3 of the Bill is intended to increase the limit on the maximum number of members of the Development Commission from eight to 12. The increase would facilitate the merger of the Development Commission with its main agency, the Council for Small Industries in Rural Areas. This was announced as part of the Government's rural enterprise package earlier this year and is expected to come into effect on 1st April 1988.
Having briefly described the background to the Bill and its contents, I should now like to turn to the details of the two schemes which the Government would propose to implement once the Bill becomes law. Both the schemes were the subject of consultation with interested parties earlier in the year. The many helpful responses we received have been fully considered and our revised proposals have been drawn up in the light of that consideration.
The first scheme concerns the provision of grants for diversifying farm businesses. We attach importance to the introduction of this imaginative new scheme. It will encourage farmers to find alternative sources of income apart from the continued production of surpluses. Opportunities will be opened up for on-farm employment. New businesses will add to the vitality and diversity of the rural economy.
The core of the new scheme will be a capital grant scheme which will be made under powers obtained under the Agriculture Act 1986 following an amendment made, as some of your Lordships will

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recall, during the passage of that Act through this House. We hope to lay statutory instruments before the House soon containing details of the scheme, but I am sure it will be useful for your Lordships to know now broadly what is intended.
As many of your Lordships know, capital grants for a limited range of craft and tourism investments on farms have been available in the less favoured areas since 1985. The new scheme will extend this assistance by making grants available without geographical restriction and for a much wider number of activities.
There are many business activities open to the farmer with true entrepreneurial talents. Some are already grant-aided by other agencies. Others can be privately financed. Our scheme will be targeted on small to medium businesses and on activities which arise naturally on the farm. We intend to aid tourist accommodation of a good standard, including camping barns which provide basic accommodation for walkers and which are attracting particular interest; also leisure, recreation, amenity and sporting facilities for visitors and the catering facilities that go with them. Value-added processing of food and other farm products and timber will also be aided, as will craft work shops together with farm shops to sell the products of the farm business. And for the first time, too, we plan to give some assistance to businesses involving horses; in particular those concerned with the provision of livery and, in the uplands only, accommodation for horses for hire. I am sure that your Lordships will welcome these proposals when we formally lay them before you.
The scope of the Agriculture Act 1970 is not, however, wide enough to permit non-capital grants to be made to diversified farm businesses. Such grants are, I believe, necessary to encourage producers to plan ahead and to investigate thoroughly whether a new business would be viable and, not least, to consider the implications it would have for the existing agricultural business. Above all, it is vital that a proper assessment is made of the market potential for the proposed product or service.
At the other end of the production line, diversified farm businesses need to market their products and services so as to ensure that the needs of the customer are met, in terms of both quality and continuity of supply. We therefore believe that some pump priming is justified to encourage producers to adopt a sound and competent approach to marketing.
Clause 1 of the Bill will permit Ministers to introduce a scheme of grants towards the cost of feasibility studies, market research and the marketing of products and services across a range of diversified farm businesses. These non-capital grants will be complementary to the capital grants, will have broadly the same conditions of eligibility and will cover similar farm-based activities.
For feasibility and market research studies, we are proposing a 50 per cent. grant. As I have said, such studies may also investigate whether changes are necessary to a producer's agricultural business to enable him to expand or establish an ancillary farm business. Before agreeing to pay these grants, Ministers will need to be satisfied that the person
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undertaking the study is competent to do so and that all aspects of the proposed business will be analysed fully.
The consultation document proposed a flat rate of 30 per cent. over three years for marketing grants. In the light of comments made on the consultation document, we are considering whether a degressive scale of grants may be more appropriate in order to give a greater incentive in the first year. We will announce revised rates when we have discussed this further with the EC Commission.
The consultation document proposed an annual ceiling on grant of £2,000 for individuals and £5,000 for groups. In the light of subsequent comments, we are looking at these limits again. The ceiling will apply separately to the various types of grant available.
We have decided that the non-capital grants scheme will be subject to prior approval for two reasons. First, although the literature about the scheme will describe the broad requirements for the content of, for example, feasibility studies, it will not be able to take account of the detailed conditions prevailing on any particular farm. As the enterprise to be studied may well be very unfamiliar to the farmer, it would not be reasonable to expect him to commission a study without some advice and confirmation that his proposals would be acceptable for grant. Similar considerations apply to the marketing grants.
The second reason for prior approval is to assist with the monitoring and control of expenditure. However, I should emphasise that we intend that the approval procedures should be as simple as possible. We do not want to impose an unnecessary administrative burden on farmers or agricultural departments.
Subsection (1) of Clause 1 provides for the scheme to specify which types of farm business will be eligible and I have already indicated those which we intend to include. Your Lordships may wish to note that we intend to assist the expansion of diversified farm businesses as well as the establishment of new ones.
Subsection (2) of Clause 1 enables the scheme to specify such matters as the eligibility of applicants. For individuals the eligibility criteria will be the same as those for capital grants. However, in the case of groups we propose that only 75 per cent. of the members will need to satisfy the full criteria, but all members will have to have an agricultural holding number. This will ensure that worthwhile group developments are not excluded from grant simply because a minority of members do not qualify.
Subsection (2) also confers a discretionary power on Ministers to allow them to refuse new applications or to give priority to certain businesses or types of grants. The subsection also provides for the scheme to include terms and conditions of payment of grants such as a requirement for the applicant to carry out the proposal as approved and for accounts to be available to the agricultural departments for inspection.
In regard to advice, producers will be able to have the benefit of general advice from the rural enterprise adviser on diversification possibilities and on

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government help for them free of charge. Working up the details of a specific project will be a chargeable service.
I come now to the details of the farm woodland scheme. Our consultation document issued on 10th March proposed a system of annual payments, additional to Forestry Commission planting grants, designed to help bridge the gap between planting and the likely first income from the thinning of timber. It was proposed that the rate of annual payment should vary according to land categories in order to reflect the fact that lesser incentives are needed to take poorer land out of agricultural production. Three rates were proposed: £30 per hectare in the severely disadvantaged areas, also known as the original less favoured areas; £60 per hectare in the disadvantaged areas, otherwise known as the new less favoured areas; and £125 per hectare elsewhere, for example mainly in the lowlands.
The consultation document also set out various scheme conditions for comment. Finally, it made clear that the first three years of the scheme were to be experimental. In the first year a maximum of 12,000 hectares would be accepted. Limits in the second and third years would be decided in the light of uptake of the scheme, but there would be an overriding limit of 36,000 hectares over the first three years.
Now let us look ahead to the scheme we are actually hoping to introduce next year. The first and most important change concerns the target land for planting under the scheme. The scheme as originally proposed would have attracted planting on to the most marginal land available in each of the three proposed zones. The point was made in response to consultation that there was a danger that this would do relatively little to reduce surpluses, which is our primary objective. Many environmental organisations also expressed concern that planting of such marginal land might lead to the loss of valuable semi-natural habitats, particularly in the lowlands.
The Government have therefore decided that the scheme should concentrate on so-called improved land. This would be done by restricting eligibility to arable land and grassland up to 10 years old; that is, grassland which has been cultivated and reseeded within the previous 10 years. Most farmers have some land of this kind.
Because such land is more productive than originally envisaged, higher rates of annual payment would be justified. We are therefore proposing rates of £100 per hectare in the severely disadvantaged areas, £150 per hectare in the disadvantaged areas and £190 per hectare in the lowlands, in respect of arable and improved land only. We shall, however, be sticking to the target of 12,000 hectares a year and the overall target of 36,000 over three years.
However, because there is proportionately less improved land in hill areas—and this applies particularly in Scotland and Wales—the Government have decided that within the overall target of 36,000 hectares over three years, some 3,000 hectares will be allocated for unimproved land planted in the SDA and DA. This would allow some
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hill farmers to plant woodlands in areas of permanent pasture or rough grazing, provided that the land had been in productive agricultural use. The rate of aid for all such planting would be £30 per hectare, as originally proposed for the SDA, recognising the minimal CAP savings that would accrue in such areas and the fact that some farmers will be able to plant on improved land and attract the £150 rate in the DA and the £100 rate in the SDA. All the rates of aid under the scheme would of course be reviewed from time to time in the light of relevant factors.
We are also anxious to give encouragement to mixed woodland containing a high percentage of broadleaves. Such woodland offers both silvicultural and economic benefits in some cases and can be a good way of establishing an eventual pure broadleaf plantation. We therefore propose to extend the payment period to 30 years for mixed woodland containing more than 50 per cent. broadleaves. In addition, we intend to introduce an even longer payment period of 40 years for pure oak and beech planting since these traditional species take longer to mature. The payment periods will therefore be: 40 years for pure oak and beech; 30 years for other broadleaves and for mixed woodland of which more than half is broadleaved; and 20 years for other woodland.
We have also decided that the planting of new trees for traditional coppice rotation should be eligible for the scheme, provided that it qualifies for Forestry Commission planting grants. Because of the earlier returns that can be expected from coppicing, the annual payments would only continue for 10 years. Shorter rotation coppice for energy uses would not be eligible.
I should emphasise to your Lordships that the extra incentives which I mentioned for broadleaf planting would be additional to and reinforce the higher rates of planting grant already payable for broadleaves. For a wood of three to ten hectares the planting grant under the broadleaved woodland grant scheme is currently £800 per hectare, whereas the corresponding rate for conifers under the forestry grant scheme is only £420 per hectare.
A number of consultees urged us to impose compulsory minimum proportions of broadleaves that would apply to individual applications. We are not persuaded that such a step is necessary. It is true that in past years much of the traditional forestry planting in the United Kingdom as a whole has tended to be coniferous. But in England where most planting takes place on lower land, 64 per cent. of private sector planting last year under Forestry Commission grant schemes was of broadleaved trees. We remain committed to the aim of achieving at least one third broadleaves under this scheme, and we take the view that the targeting of the scheme on better quality land and the incentives it provides for broadleaf planting will enable us to achieve this aim without compulsory minimum proportions. Moreover, sensitive planting will be encouraged in our advisory literature and the actual planting under the scheme will be closely monitored so that action can be taken if the broadleaf proportions fall short of what we expect.

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On the minimum and maximum areas per holding, we now propose a maximum of 40 hectares per holding throughout the UK. The woodland will have to form part of the applicant's farming operations and so afforestation of the whole holding will be ruled out. The minimum per holding will be three hectares, except in Northern Ireland where the average holding size is much less and so the minimum plantation will only be one hectare per holding. The minimum size for each block of woodland will remain at one hectare. The logic of this is to ensure that farmers take sizeable pieces of land out of production.
In drawing up these proposals, we have been concerned to try and simplify the scheme as far as possible and to keep administrative costs to the minimum. To this end, we have decided to reduce the amount of consultation with local authorities on planting of farm woodlands where small areas are involved, particularly on improved land. On larger areas, perhaps of over 10 hectares, consultation continues to be appropriate because of the possible landscape implications. Existing arrangements would, however, continue in national designated areas such as Sites of Special Scientific Interest, Environmentally Sensitive Areas, national parks in England and Wales and national scenic areas in Scotland. National nature reserves will be excluded from the scheme altogether. My right honourable friend will want to discuss the details with representatives of local authorities. But change in the consultation arrangements is needed to save money and speed up the processing of applications which will make the farm woodland scheme more attractive.
Although, as I have said, we are concerned to keep costs down, we shall be allocating some additional manpower to this scheme both at the Forestry Commission and within the agriculture department's advisory services. For many farmers this will be their first venture into woodlands and good advice will be essential to ensure that the investment in young trees is not wasted. As for diversification, general advice from ADAS will be free, but detailed work on a project will be a chargeable service.
On the subject of young trees, the Government are particularly conscious of the need to obtain adequate supplies of nursery stock for planting under the scheme. My department and the Forestry Commission have had a number of meetings with the Horticultural Trades Association on this subject and will be continuing to liaise closely with nursery growers. We shall be doing what we can to ensure that enough young trees are available and that they are of good quality stock and, as far as possible, supplied from domestic sources. I am fully aware of the difficulties caused by the recent storms.
Finally, questions have been raised about landlord/tenant issues in relation to the scheme. The Government are keen that tenant farmers should be able, with their landlords' agreement, to participate in the scheme. Discussions have been taking place between representatives of the National Farmers' Union, the Country Landowners' Association and the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors on the best way to achieve this. We understand that agreement has been reached on all the fundamental points and that model clauses are being prepared for
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inclusion in tenancy agreements under the Agricultural Holdings Act and for use in model forestry leases where a separate long lease seems more sensible. The Government very much endorse this voluntary approach, since agreement between landlord and tenant is sensible on a long-term enterprise of this kind and we should not embark lightly on changes to the landlord/tenant legislation. This represents a careful balance of interests and, only relatively recently, was amended and debated at enormous length in Parliament. We shall, however, exclude from the scheme land that has been taken back into hand by a landlord for forestry under a tenancy agreement resumption clause.
Forestry, and particularly farm forestry, is an important use for surplus farm land. Wood is one of the few crops that can be grown on all but the bleakest and wettest land, and I am told that Britain has an advantage in timber growing conditions over most European countries. Some have criticised our proposals for not going far enough, given the land use problem that we may have to face. I would simply say two things in answer to that.
First, this is an experimental scheme and will be closely monitored. This is surely a sensible way to proceed when we do not have an established tradition of farm forestry in this country as they have in, say, France and Germany. Secondly, although 12,000 hectares may sound a relatively small area, the number of trees needed will not be small. If planted at a conventional forestry spacing of two metres apart, 2,500 trees are required for every hectare planted. This equates to 1,000 trees per acre. That would mean a total of up to 30 million trees per year if farmers succeed in planting the full target area. Even with the losses of mature trees which we have sustained through various causes, including Dutch elm disease and the recent storms in the South-East, on which the Government are taking separate, urgent action, I do not accept that the planting of 30 million trees per year could be described as inadequate.
I apologise for having explained our revised proposals for this scheme at some length. I hope I have not presumed too much upon your Lordships' interest in these matters. But the Government attach considerable importance to this scheme. We have proposed re-targeting the scheme towards better land so that it makes a greater contribution towards the reduction of surpluses and Exchequer expenditure in line with our efforts elsewhere to bring more sense into the common agricultural policy. We have proposed higher rates of payment to make the scheme more attractive to farmers. We have enhanced the environmental benefits it will bring by the changes we have made. The director general of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds recently commented as follows:
"Planting trees on wheat fields or improved grasslands would bring diverse wildlife benefits. A wide range of broadleaves and conifers will grow on this richer land, enhancing the landscape, providing high value timber for the farmer, and giving local fuel, shelter and sporting benefits too".
I shall only add that the contribution which the new woods that will be established will make to our countryside should be additionally welcome after the disastrous damage inflicted by the storms last month.

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To sum up, I repeat that this is a small but important Bill. I should simply like to commend it to your Lordships for approval and beg to move that it now be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Baroness Trumpington.)
4 p.m.
Lord John-Mackie: My Lords, I find it difficult to make a start in this matter. When the Minister began to speak, she emphasised that this is an enabling Bill. When she took over her present job, she jokingly came to me and said, "You won't be too hard on me until I find my feet". I do not think that is required. But I must tell her here and now that the armistice is finished.
The Minister said that she hoped she was not presuming. She is presuming with a capital "P". I started to take notes as she spoke in order to reply to some of the points she was making. However, with such a wealth of detail, she has almost moved to the Committee stage of the Bill. It is quite unacceptable that the House should have all those details before it without having seen the Bill in print, other than in a broad way. I hope the noble Baroness will take note of what I am saying. Personally, I am going to treat it as the Second Reading of an enabling Bill, making one or two points on the way.
Clause 1 is definitely an enabling clause. It is full of bureaucratic language. That is necessary, I suppose, to cover all eventualities although some of it requires reading a few times before it is possible to understand what on earth it means.
Clause 1(1) applies to expenses for feasibility and market research studies. This is very necessary. Farmers should be careful before they enter into new projects which they do not know enough about. They should be able to make a study of them. If a scheme is large and particularly if it relates to something which one has to sell, it can be very expensive. Having gone into a scheme and found that it is not workable, would the grant still be paid? I believe it could be very expensive.
I believe that the phrase, "has been or is to be incurred" requires an explanation. The noble Baroness made a point regarding prior approval of a scheme. Does that also apply to the grant because it is mentioned in the clause relating to woodlands as well? As the noble Baroness knows, with grant schemes for improving buildings prior approval is not necessary. I wondered if this was the same.
Can the noble Baroness explain Clause 1(1)(b)? It is not clear to me what it means. The official language in subsection (2)(d) is also very difficult for a layman like myself. I have no doubt that lawyers can deal with it. Subsection (2)(g) says that different provision will be made for different cases. Does this mean a wide range of different grants for all sorts of different schemes? I consider it will be a major task to sort that out. The question I ask is: who decides this?
As the noble Baroness pointed out, Clause 1 is there to encourage diversification of grants. On change of use of farm buildings and farm houses, I believe the noble Baroness mentioned turning barns
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into tourist attractions and so on. This may encourage a dairyman to go out of milk and use his buildings for another purpose. I know of one farmer who has turned his buildings into livery stables. But, on the whole, there is bound to be little effect in regard to taking land out of farming.
I do not know whether this will qualify for a grant but two farmers at the bottom of my road have applied for planning permission to build a golf course. Unfortunately, my golfing days have finished and I will not gain any benefit. I wish to emphasise that diversification will have very little effect on crop surpluses unless, as I have said, some people go out of milk.
Clause 2 deals with the grant to plant and manage trees. No one can deny the necessity for more trees in Britain. The demand for timber is increasing as the forests of the world are cut down at an appalling rate—a rate of over 50 acres a minute according to my calculations. Every year we spend on wood and wood products something approaching £5,000 million. No one can deny the necessity for trees but, my Lords, there is a very big "but". The noble Baroness, in the latter part of her speech, tried to incorporate this question with that of taking land out of production. The immediate problem, as everyone agrees, is that of reducing surpluses. But it is simply not practical to join the two issues. It will have a very niggling effect on surpluses.
Various figures have been quoted of how much land should be withdrawn. A figure of 3 million acres has been mentioned. The noble Baroness mentioned a figure of about 30,000 hectares. But the figure of 3 million acres and more of productive land which should come out of production at once has arisen.
Baroness Trumpington: I do not think I said 3 million acres.
Lord John-Mackie: I said 3 million acres and the noble Baroness said something like 30,000 acres, which is a big difference.
I have consulted nurserymen employed by the Forestry Commission. I am told that there are simply not enough tree plants available. It takes quite a while to produce a tree plant because the seed has to be collected and put into a nursery. I understand that the minimum period is two years. Generally, it is three to four years. I believe that we have to reconsider this question.
The noble Baroness quoted a large number of figures. I tried to make a note of some in order to speak about them. Unfortunately, she mentioned too many. I wonder if any farmer with grade 1 or 2 land will ever go over to trees. The grant to tempt him into tree production on that type of land would have to be enormous. I have worked out from the figures the noble Baroness has quoted that the highest grant is £80 per acre which simply will not tempt anyone to produce trees. I doubt whether even on grade 3 land it would tempt many farmers. It may tempt a few but not very many.
There is room in the lowlands for more deciduous trees but this would apply only to small areas; for example the corners of farmers' fields on grade 1 and

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2 land and in the renewal of old and badly managed woodlands.
The growing of conifers and deciduous trees on marginal land and in the uplands is a different kettle of fish. There is room there for more trees and for farming. I saw many examples when I was at the Forestry Commission, including the development of forestry on big hill-land farms. One of the best examples I have seen was on the land of the noble Duke, the Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry, in Dumfriesshire. He had gone into partnership with his tenant to develop forestry on the farm and to build roads to serve the forestry. The whole thing was a tremendous advantage to the farmer. It was agreed to be a great advantage. That was on a large scale.
I saw also a farm in Wales of approximately 200 to 300 acres consisting of a little hill land and the rest semi-arable. The farmer had developed forestry on a small scale and it was a tremendous advantage to him not only for selling trees but also for firewood and for his own fencing and so on. It can and should be done. There has always been an antipathy to forestry, but farmers are now beginning to take a different view and there is no doubt that this scheme should help.
Again, it will have a minimal effect on surpluses. Surpluses are not coming from that quality of land at all. I feel that any effort to replace cereal production, in particular with trees, is a complete non-starter. Taking large areas of productive land out of production permanently should be looked at very severely. Sir Kenneth Blaxter, the former head of the Rowett Research Institute, in an article on world food production in The Lancet this spring makes this very clear. He points out that to feed a population which will be 6,000 million by the end of this century, and probably around 7,500 million in the following 20 years, will require—and I should like noble Lords to think on this figure—a 2.5-fold increase per unit area of land in food production.
I quote his conclusion in the article:
"Its divisions"—
that is, divisions of states and so on—
"may well mean that what is possible cannot be achieved and that hunger will continue to be the lot of many throughout the years to come".
We should think on that. Surely it is a grave warning that we should heed before we take land permanently out of food production, particularly by planting deciduous trees on grade 1 and grade 2 land.
Before I conclude I should like to say something about environmental issues. I have crossed swords with environmentalists quite a lot in my time, in one way or another. I get on with some and I do not get on too well with others. However, they seem to be looking forward. From letters I have received, articles I have read and statements that have been made, they believe that reducing production and planting trees on farms will create a countryside bereft of farming activity, open to all and sundry to wander on at will.
The Guardian newspaper had an article along those lines, complete with a photograph of a derelict farmhouse surrounded by a few scrubby trees and a neglected garden. The caption refers to a battle that threatens the tranquillity of the farm in Wales. It is
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appalling to think that papers as responsible as the Guardian should put that across. If that is what the environmentalists want in our farming, they will have to think again. I have that photograph, if noble Lords wish to see it.
I believe that the environmentalists have a case in many ways for access to the countryside, but they cannot ask, as the Ramblers Association asks in a letter to my noble friend, for complete access to the countryside. If we are going to farm and produce food, that simply cannot be. On my farm in Essex, which is only 22 or 22½ miles from here, we have five footpaths entering the farm from different sides and I have never yet seen it overcrowded. I have never seen anywhere without plenty of room for the environmentalists to enjoy the countryside without asking for this wholesale access.
Naturally we give our blessing to this Bill and its essential main issues. However, I hope that your Lordships will take note of what it may or may not do to the surpluses that it is so important we get rid of at present.
I took a few notes of what the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, said, but we will have another opportunity either in Committee or at a later stage to go into the detail, which in my opinion it was very wrong to bring forward today.
4.5 p.m.
Lord Walston: My Lords, at the outset I associate myself very much with the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, made her speech with the best of intentions and had no desire to weary us with a great many details. However, I feel that on Second Reading of a Bill which is a purely enabling Bill, it is not necessary to go into details of the density of planting proposed for certain trees and many other similar details which are of importance—but not on Second Reading. I say that particularly in view of the debate we had yesterday on the need for speeding up proceedings in this House. I hope that the noble Baroness and her colleagues will bear that in mind.
Having said that, I hope I will not unduly surprise the noble Baroness when I say that we on these Benches consider this a good Bill, a useful and a moderately important Bill. However, as I said, it is a purely enabling Bill and whether it is going to be an effective Bill depends entirely on how its provisions are implemented.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, and with his warnings. So far as one can understand from the Bill, from what the noble Baroness said and some of the accompanying literature which her department has produced, it really cannot claim to be a serious attempt to cope with the problem of surpluses in this country and in the Community.
The attractive document produced by the Ministry of Agriculture called Farming UK says in its introduction, having set out the various objectives which are contained in this Bill, that the Government will make provision, building up to £25 million a year in a few years' time. If that is all the Government are proposing to devote to implementation of this Bill,

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while one cannot mock at it one cannot seriously pretend that the expenditure of that sort of money and the taking out, if the Government succeed in their intentions, of 36,000 hectares—I think that was the figure the noble Baroness gave—partly marginal land, partly less favoured land and partly grade 1 and grade 2 land, will do more than nibble at the problem.
Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, will be able to tell us what is the surplus production of grain—we confine ourselves to grain for the moment—within the Community at present. My own feeling—I have not been able to check the figures and I may be wrong—is that it is in excess of 10 million tonnes per annum. I believe it may be rather more than that, but perhaps the noble Baroness can give the correct figure.
If that figure is approximately correct, as we produce about 20 per cent. of the whole cereal production of the Community our contribution towards reducing the surplus should be 20 per cent. of 10 million tonnes, which is about 2 million tonnes. If 36,000 hectares are taken out and if the average yield of those is about five tonnes per hectare, that is under 200,000 tonnes if my mathematics are correct.
Two hundred thousand tonnes out of 2 million is not really a very significant contribution. I have only put forward these figures to show that however good the intentions of this Bill may be—and they are good and they are right—it cannot make any significant contribution towards solving the problem unless its present scope is enormously increased. Perhaps the noble Baroness will be able to tell us that this is just a trial run and that if it succeeds it will be greatly increased within a few years so that we really can cope with these matters. I would ask her to say what scope she thinks will arise when it is found to work well.
One point that must be borne in mind is what is needed to persuade farmers to give up cultivating some of their land. What many people do not take sufficiently into account is the large proportion today in farming taken by the standing charges that there are for every acre. If, as a farmer, you reduce your acreage by 10 per cent. you still have to pay somebody your rent, if you are a tenant, or pay interest on your mortgage, unless you are one of those rare people with entirely unencumbered land.
You cannot get rid of 10 per cent. of your labour force—you probably have only one man—and you cannot get rid of 10 per cent. of your one tractor or your one combine, and so on. All your standing charges remain, and they may well be anything up to 80 per cent. of your total costs. So those have to be met before you can persuade farmers to do something different, because the variable costs do not come to much more than 20 per cent. or 25 per cent. of the total costs. That is an essential factor to be borne in mind in any attempt to dissuade farmers from cultivating every acre they have at their disposal.
Clause 1 is a good clause. I remember what I said at the beginning of my speech about going into too much detail, and I am not trying to get more detail out of the noble Baroness at this stage; but I think that we must know more about the type of
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arrangements the Government have in mind if they are trying to persuade farmers to go over to different activities.
Are they going to be paid the capital grants which will continue, and, if so, what type will they be? Will they be grants, for instance, to assist in the making up of roads so as to leave picnic sites to encourage town dwellers to go and picnic there? Will they go as far as that type of thing, and what form of liaison will there be between the Ministry of Agriculture, which makes the grants, and the local authorities, which give planning permission?
One could get into a rather embarrassing position where the Ministry of Agriculture says, "By all means renew your buildings so as to have a farm shop or in order to have ponies there or to make parking space for picnickers" and the local planning authorities say, "Not on your life: we do not want any new buildings, extensions or alterations". That is surely quite an important matter which has to be looked at before this Bill can be implemented.
I do not think the noble Baroness dealt quite fully enough with the forestry aspect. I was glad to hear from her that it looks as though agreement has now been reached between those representing the tenant farmers and those representing the landlords. There are clearly some difficulties there, as indeed there may be with the various improvements also made under Clause 1, where tenancy agreements may not allow the sort of development which is considered correct and desirable under this Bill.
A further point under both Clause 1 and Clause 2 is the enormous importance of access to the countryside. I hope that my noble friend Lord Hunt will have something to say about that and about the environment in general. But there must be the closest possible liaison between those who are concerned with the protection and the enhancement of the environment, access to the countryside, the preservation of wildlife and the encouragement of more wildlife and those who are encouraging forestry, picnic sites and so on.
It must be borne in mind that forestry is not always the friend of wildlife. Much is said about the advantages of having more woodlands and the fact that birds like them; but quite a lot of birds are not very keen on woodlands, even of the hardwood variety. Also, there are quite a lot of predators on wildlife which do like them. So you must have close co-operation with the Countryside Commission, the Naturalists Trust and all those concerned with the protection of the environment as well as those engaged in the opening up of the countryside to the urban population.
Finally, with regard to Clause 3 I should like to pay tribute to the admirable work done by the Development Commission. I hope the fact that there are going to be additional members of the Development Commission means that there will be additional funds for it and that it will be able to do more of the very useful work it is doing at the present time. Simply adding to its numbers is not enough in itself, but I hope we can be assured that the increase is a symbol of the importance the Government attach to the commission's work, because if this Bill is to be

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implemented, as we all hope it will be, undoubtedly the work of the Development Commission will be greatly expanded.
I repeat what I said at the beginning: the Bill itself is a very useful one. It will make it possible for the Government to do the right things. We hope that they will make the fullest possible use of this measure and that the Treasury will not be a brake on what they are able to do and I am sure would like to do.
4.18 p.m.
Lord Borthwick: My Lords, being both a farmer and a forester, I have found the Bill very interesting. After the 1914 and 1939 wars large areas of Scotland and England, and I believe of Wales too—unfortunately I have not been able to visit Wales for many long years but I hope to do so again fairly soon—were planted up. In many areas the planting has grown into substantial forests. They have covered big areas of land with rather bleak-looking timber. Looking at it from the hilltops I would call it "mono-coloured gloom". It does not look very interesting; it is not a very good habitat for animals.
I hear that people want to see more of nature. I think that many of these areas need covering round the edges. If you want to help nature, you have to give nature cover. These woods have no cover. They are tall timber and the winds go right through them. They could be made into good cover by planting the edges. I have tried to do that for sheep cover now and again for lambing and so on. It is quite successful and it also is useful natural cover. I have rather gone away from some of the notes that I made so I shall get back to them again.
When those areas are planted with trees and shrubs, it makes them pleasant for visitors and the natives alike. If the right shrubs and bushes are chosen, we can feed the wildlife in summer and winter, besides creating build for hill stock, which is essential for the farmers who are left.
The Bill seems to be tailored more for smallholders, crofters and family farms rather than for the larger variety. I shall be interested in the Minister's opinion on this matter. It may be claimed that this type of protection is already covered by some other Act.
I notice that Clause 3 increases the number of development commissioners from eight to 12. In most councils one finds that the more members there are, more talk and less work is the result. But in this case, if the extra members are to help the locals by supervising the scheme and help with their technical knowledge as fieldsmen and not as chairborne pontificators, I shall agree wholeheartedly with the proposal.
I should like to ask some of the questions that went through my mind when I heard noble Lords speaking about this matter before. I did not realise that this proposal would apply also to Northern Ireland. If there is a similar scheme in Northern Ireland, the military must be brought in. That is important, and any soldier will understand that. We must watch how we plant timber in dangerous country.
Farmers are good producers, but they are not always good salesmen. What is one to do with a wood
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once one has it? There are many stories about that, but they are not satisfactory. Some years ago, after one of my first thinnings, I could not sell my timber. Eventually I obtained a sale. It cost me about £1·35 a tonne to sell it. I decided that that was not a good idea, and so I kept it for two or three years. That did not improve the forest much but it improved my price, because I received a little more for it at that time. The timber went to Sweden. It was pulped there and came back to produce the Morning Times, or whatever it was. That is rather unnecessary. I think things have become a little better now. Two large mills are coming and the timber should be saleable. We must also watch out for saleable types.
Oak has been mentioned. That presumably means English oak. I think that the quicker and easier oak to sell is probably the Turkish. I am not in the trade, so I do not know. The Turkish oak is a fine oak. Furniture-makers think English oak is much better. The best oak of all of course is the Irish. It is mild and beautifully marked for cabinet-making.
I also know about small areas. There is a high cost involved in fencing small areas. Development must also be kept up. The smaller the area, the more expensive the fencing. In some instances, it may be possible to have two or three farmers creating woodlands together.
I had a small area to deal with. I do not remember its size, but I remember that the fencing was five miles long. I went in cahoots with a neighbouring farmer who was also a proprietor. We put up a long woodland which provided cover between two farms. He did one side and I did the other. My part of the fencing was five miles long, and that rather put up the cost. I have not had the cost back yet. We must watch these things. Wet areas are all right, but the draining must be watched because other costs come in. The costs want looking into. I think that I have said all that I want to say. I shall have much pleasure in helping to put this Bill on the statute book. It cannot but contribute in every aspect to the population of the countryside.
4.25 p.m.
Lord Denning: My Lords, on behalf of us all, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Borthwick, for the enlightening speech he has given us from his great experience. He has a family title which goes back to 1452 and he is the 23rd Lord. I read that the Lordship was dormant from 1910 to 1986. How good it is that it has now become active with such a splendid speech by my noble friend. One of the most attractive qualities of the title is that the holder is the Hereditary Royal Falconer for Scotland. Long may he continue with his falcons!
I do not know much about farming, though I have a little farm of my own. Surpluses in the European Community are a problem which must be tackled. There is far too much milk and butter. There are butter mountains and the like. Something must be done to reduce them for the benefit of all.
The Bill seeks to do that by encouraging farmers to give up a great deal of their agriculture and do other things. The Bill seeks to encourage them to give up their farms or a large part of their land and turn it into woodland. They will receive grants for that

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purpose. As one who loves our English countryside, I hope that that will not go too far. I love our countryside with its golden cornfields, meadows, cows, dairies, hedges and the like. Please do not destroy it and turn us into an afforested land like the Lake District.
I plead that we should preserve the amenities of our countryside. It has the best and most experienced farmers in the world. It has the best machinery in the world. Please do not decrease our agricultural industry too greatly though I realise that something must be done. The schemes have been discussed with all those interested. No doubt the Bill will give them force.
Having made that plea for the countryside, I wish to turn to one special subject. I wish to talk about councils and others in the South of England. These schemes all talk about converting agricultural land into woodland. Through large parts of the South of England there are projects for converting woodlands into agricultural land. Planning law at the moment gives the advantage to the person who plans to turn woodlands into agricultural land. Under the 1971 planning legislation there was a provision which enabled local authorities to make tree preservation orders to preserve our woodlands. No one is allowed to cut or fell timber or grub up those woodlands without the consent of the local council.
There was also a provision that if the applicant was refused permission he could obtain compensation from the local authority which had refused him that permission. There have been cases in the Canterbury City Council area. There have been cases in Hampshire, at Oakley, near Basingstoke. The local authority put tree preservation orders on a beautiful copse and woods to save them. They were not to be grubbed up or destroyed. They were to be kept because they were an amenity. That is what local authorities do.
Then what happened? Commercial companies came in and, having bought the woodlands at a very cheap price, applied to the local authority to turn them into agricultural land. The local authority of course refused. It was preserving our amenities. The commercial companies then said, "We claim compensation from the Lands Tribunal. You have stopped us developing this into agricultural land; so you must pay us compensation." Awards have been made—in Canterbury, £50,000 or more. The woods, of course, are never going to be taken down. So this is a sheer windfall for the person making the application. The same is threatened in Hampshire.
As an ancillary part of the Bill, some provision should be made to prevent such exploitation. I have noted down a suggestion for consideration. It is to amend Section 174 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 to provide that compensation is not given for conversion of woodland into agricultural land. The present woodlands, which go back centuries, should not be turned into agricultural land and should not be made the source of profit for the person making the application.
Apart from that, like other noble Lords, I welcome the Bill, although I make the plea that preservation should not go too far.
4.33 p.m.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, had it not been for the debate in your Lordships' house yesterday, it would have given me great pleasure to congratulate my noble friend on his maiden speech. However, as it was considered that it would be inappropriate for other speakers to do so, I shall desist. I should declare an interest. I am involved in agriculture and forestry, and I am a director of a forestry company.
I welcome the Bill and congratulate my noble friend on bringing it forward. However, I was disappointed and surprised by the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, because he really did wire in to my noble friend. The noble Lord is very agreeable, but it appears that he got out of bed the wrong side this morning. There was my noble friend explaining what the Bill meant and the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, saying that he did not know where to start but that he objected to all the detail. I thought that the noble Lord might have started in the wrong place. Like the noble Lord, when I first read the Bill, I did not know where to start because I did not know what it meant. I was glad that my noble friend had the graciousness to explain to your Lordships what this enabling Bill means. Had my noble friend come forward with a Bill saying, "Here is an enabling Bill, but I do not intend to tell you what we are going to do", your Lordships might reasonably have complained. I noticed that the noble Lord, Lord Walston, joined forces with the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie. With respect, I think that he too was a little misplaced. Incidentally, having said that he objected to all the detail, the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, was not sated with it but proceeded to ask for more. That, again, was curious.
The Bill has wide powers—
Lord John-Mackie: My Lords, if I may say so, I asked the noble Baroness about provisions in the Bill. I did not ask for anything outside the Bill. I asked for some explanation of one or two provisions in the Bill.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, that is fine. The noble Lord has it on both counts: he gets what is in the Bill and what is not in the Bill; so he should be well satisfied.
The importance of the Bill is not what it says but what it represents. My noble friend said that it is not a large Bill. It is, however, large in philosophy. It is a positive indication that the Government are helping agriculture to diversify. I do not think that it would be easy to do that, because farmers go into farming to farm. For many, that has been the only way of life. They do not go into farming to run golf courses, to make Victorian rocking chairs or to turn their homes involuntarilly into hotels.
I was interested to note that the Bill makes provision for horses. That must be unique. I understood that the Ministry of Agriculture had ruled that horses were not agricultural animals and therefore that horses were debarred from anything to do with the Ministry. My noble friend has driven a coach and four through those regulations.
I hope that the Government will consider the Bill, modest as it is, as a first step only in helping agriculture to meet the changes of the future which

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are unknown. It is right to remind ourselves that agriculture is going through an unprecedented revolution. For the first time in about four decades it lacks a sense of direction. It lacks public support because of such things as the surpluses, and the cost of the common agricultural policy. In the public mind the vast costs of the common agricultural policy, caused, as they are, by the storage and disposal of surpluses, are assumed to have gone to farmers so that the farmers are all right. But that simply is not so. It is true that some farmers, possibly large farmers on good land, may be all right. But most farmers are not large farmers and are not on grade 1 land.
British agriculture is going through an exceedingly difficult time with the prospect of conditions getting worse. Many farmers are in financial difficulties. Many are selling their farms; many would wish to do so were it not for the fact that the farm also happens to be their home. I want my noble friend to understand without any hint of doubt that the farming community is undergoing acute financial strain. After this year's appalling weather in which the harvest was ruined, there are not many farming units—certainly not in East Anglia—that will be in a state of profit. I do not blame the Government for this; it is part of the business of farming. I merely state the fact because it is too often said that the farming community is doing all right.
With that scenario and against a bleak and unexciting outlook, it is not suprising that the industry is depressed. If the Government do not wish to see a declining countryside, they must be fully aware of that fact. I agree very much with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, that the British countryside is a fine thing. It would be a great pity if we were to see that countryside become derelict and spoilt. To change it completely is not all that easy. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Walston. I do not know whether this would have a vast impact on surpluses. If it did have a vast impact, make no mistake! It would have a huge impact on the countryside as well.
I welcome the Bill as the first step. I am glad that it will enable not just one scheme to be made, but several. The incentives will have to be substantial to encourage change. Whatever may be the income from change, the cost of change—not just the financial side but the managerial, emotional and expertise aspects—will often be way beyond what many people expect.
I am glad to note in Clause 2 provisions for encouraging farm woodlands. I dare say that that will run into difficulties with our friends the environmentalists. Already there seem to be murmurings of disagreement. It is curious that 20 years ago there was an outcry against felling the trees because of the birds, the insects and the landscape. There is now an outcry against planting the trees for the same reasons, which I fancy will increase. I cannot help thinking that there are some people who adopt the old Victorian adage, "Go and see what the children are doing and tell them not to do it."
I hope that the Government will stand firm and encourage this alternative use. If agriculture is considered long-term, forestry is considered very long-term. It is one thing that forestry should provide
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an alternative land use but it is quite another that it should provide an alternative income. I was concerned that the incentives would not be high enough and, despite the rebuke which the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, gave to my noble friend today, I was glad that the noble Baroness indicated that the incentives would be larger than had previously been mentioned. That is a good thing.
I hope it will not be totally out of place, while discussing woodlands, the woods and the countryside, to refer to the recent terrible gale damage in some parts of the country—certainly in our area—where whole woods up to and in excess of 100 acres have been blown down as also have freestanding trees, whether hardwoods or softwoods. I believe that the amount of timber which has been blown down varies from 3½ million cubic metres to 7 million cubic metres. That is difficult to comprehend unless one puts it into perspective by saying that the area blown down would normally have been felled at the rate of about half a million cubic metres per year. Therefore at the lower estimate seven years' worth of timber has blown down; and at the higher estimate 14 years' worth has blown down.
Apart from the difficulty and expense in clearing this timber, it will produce a major marketing problem. Prices, like the Stock Exchange, will go haywire. The cost of clearance and of replanting will be phenomenal but, not just in the large forestry areas or in the large estate areas because it is the ordinary small, individual owners and small farmers who have suffered this very great destruction. The irony is that in many cases had the owner wished to fell the tree—the tree which subsequently blew down—when it stood, he would not have been allowed to do so. He would not have obtained a tree felling order because the tree was considered something of beauty. There has now to be replacement at great cost.
I should like to ask my noble friend—if it is not too far outside the ambit of the Bill—whether she would be kind enough to let your Lordships know the rules or the provisions governing the grants for replanting. The Government acted with extraordinary alacrity and allowed I think £3 million for replanting. Is that to go just to local authorities or is it to go to the private sector? Will those private individuals, who whatever the size of their holding may have suffered damage which they wish to repair and replace, be able to have access to any of those funds?
I welcome the Bill. I hope that it will be the first of a number of measures that the Government will introduce in which they will be shown to be actively and unashamedly helping agriculture through a period of unprecedented and unforeseeable change.
4.47 p.m.
Lord Hunt: My Lords, I was not in your Lordships' House yesterday when I understand that it was agreed that succeeding speakers would not congratulate a maiden speaker on his or her speech. I hope that your Lordships will forgive me—in fact I hope that you will echo my sentiment—when I infringe that agreement slightly to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Borthwick, on his admirable brevity, setting a splendid example to noble Lords.

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I follow the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, and previous speakers, in welcoming the Bill. I cannot imagine that anybody would not welcome it. I do not follow the noble Earl further beyond noting his strictures about environmentalists. I know he meant them in the kindest possible way.
I speak this afternoon—as I am sure others do—on behalf of those who are concerned for the conservation of our countryside. The Bill provides the authority for the agricultural ministries to enable and encourage farmers to remain on the land. That must be welcome to everyone who is concerned and cares about our countryside, the wildlife in it, the recreation opportunities, the access to the countryside, and the general enjoyment of the public. I am mainly concerned from the environmental point of view. Farmers are essential to manage and care for the countryside in the way that they have done from time immemorial. For those of us who are or have been concerned with national parks it is particularly welcome that the Bill proposes to make grants to farmers on a positive note. We have never liked the provisions in the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 which make grants to prevent them from doing things which are deemed to be environmentally damaging. This strikes a positive note and that is surely excellent.
I accept that this is an enabling Bill. I had not expected to hear from the noble Baroness the details which she was good enough to give us. I have done my best to follow them. I shall read them more carefully in Hansard tomorrow. However, I have come bearing a message of concern from a number of environmental bodies—the CPRE, the Council for National Parks and a number of others including those concerned with recreation—which have received no reply from the Ministry of Agriculture to their responses to the consultative document. That was made available to them last May. Am I to take it—perhaps the noble Baroness will correct me if I am wrong—that what she has told us and what we shall shortly have laid before us will be the response to that consultative document? At this moment in time these bodies are still concerned about a number of aspects, most of which the noble Baroness covered, and, as far as I was able to follow, some of what she said should allay their anxieties to some extent.
Although this is only an enabling Bill, there are one or two relevant points in the Bill on which I should like to comment. Those of us who are concerned with the aspects of the countryside would like to be reasssured that the requirements of Section 17 of the Agriculture Act 1986, dealing with the social, economic and conservation aspects and the enjoyment of the public, will be met. I note that that section is referred to in Clause 2 of the Bill. That is very satisfactory but I am left wondering why there is no reference to it in Clause 1. Perhaps the noble Baroness will comment on that when she replies.
The inclusion of the term "farm business" in the Bill has done nothing to allay the anxiety of those outside your Lordships' House and perhaps of some of us within. Schemes for environmental conservation or enhancement, and schemes designed to allow the public at large to enjoy the countryside,
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do not all sit comfortably under the heading of "farm business". For instance, some may not be financially rewarded. One can think of quite a number of activities and provisions for the conservation of the countryside, for the enjoyment of the public, which will not bring in money. One would like to be assured that, nonetheless, the grants will encourage them to make provision as required under Section 17 of the Agriculture Act.
I am particularly interested in and concerned with recreation in the countryside. It would be hard to exaggerate its importance. The Countryside Commission in a recent survey estimated that some 84 per cent. of the public at large enjoy recreation in the countryside, and no fewer than 24 per cent. are regular walkers in the country. According to the Association of National Parks Officers, some 90 million people visited the parks in 1986. I am certain that that number was exceeded last year. That is five times the total number of people attending all professional football matches in a season. Should not the Government reconsider the term "farm business" or perhaps amplify it, so as to ensure that the spirit as well as the letter of Section 17 of the Agriculture Act is adhered to? To that end also, and just to repeat myself, I should like to see a reference to that section in Clause 1.
As regards Clause 2, I, as do others, welcome the fact that grants are to be made not only to convert the land to woodland, but to manage that woodland once it is established. It is no less important that farmers should be encouraged and enabled, through grant-aid, to manage and improve the condition of woodlands which exist already and some of which have been neglected for generations. Those, too, should be eligible for grant. I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to reassure us that what we shall have laid before us will make provision to that end.
Here again we await MAFF's response to the comments offered by the voluntary bodies on MAFF's woodland consultative document, which was published last March. Needless to say, the requirements in regard to conservation—conserving the landscape and providing for public enjoyment and access—are just the same for woodland as they are for the countryside. The profit motive implicit in the term "business" in regard to Clause 2 may well encourage farmers to convert land mainly into conifer plantations. I should like to stress, as has one other noble Lord, that that has done much to spoil our upland landscapes.
Finally, on Clause 3 I note that the membership of the Development Commission is to be increased. I venture to hope that that will make it quite certain there will be adequate representation of those interested in conservation and the environment as well as those interested in amenity and recreation.
4.53 p.m.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: My Lords, this is the first, and I hope the last, time that I have to apologise for having to catch a train so I may not be able to be here for the winding-up speech of my noble friend this evening. The alternative is to face divorce, which after 34 years of marriage would be very expensive. I

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doubt whether even this Bill, wide though its powers are, would give me a diversification grant for such an activity.
Your Lordships have noted that this is an enabling Bill, despite the criticisms of the noble Lords, Lord John-Mackie and Lord Walston, who complained that my noble friend on the Front Bench gave them too many details. Like my noble friend Lord Ferrers I think that in agricultural terms they were pushing their luck a little in so far as, if she had not, I would be absolutely convinced that they would have said she should have. But that is par for the course, I suppose.
However, as far as I am concerned it is difficult to interpret what exactly the Bill's details and its effects will be. But I can assure the House that its effects will be minimised unless the Government ensure, realise or appreciate three things: first, that planning authorities will recognise the need to grant planning applications further to encourage diversification. Some local authorities do but others do not. Although I recognise the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, I have a brief from the RSPB. My heart, if there is a conflict, lies with solving our rural unemployment problems rather than with the birds and bees. Sometimes, I am sorry to say, there is a conflict. One has to decide which way to go. I was pleased to note the remarks of my noble friend that small plantations will be free from local authority planning.
Secondly, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, raised this point, unless the basic agricultural financial problems of the CAP can be solved and a long-term plan evolved—which in my opinion must be based on price restraint—the Bill will achieve very little, for the incentive to diversify will be lost. Thirdly, the help for farmers to diversify suggested in the Bill will, I hope, mean more employment in the countryside. Much of it, I believe, will be part-time. Unless the Government come to grips with the problem, those who are in receipt of unemployment or social security benefit and who wish to take on part-time work, will not do so if most of their social benefit is clawed back, which it is at the moment. When that happens they are no better off financially, unless of course your Lordships approve of the black economy. I hope that my noble friend can assure me that the Government will keep these three points in mind so as to make this Bill as effective as I and I think every one of us would wish. I therefore wish it well.
4.57 p.m.
Lord Moran: My Lords, I welcome the Bill and the shift in objectives which it sets out. I was encouraged by what the Minister told us about it. Unlike the noble Lords, Lord John-Mackie and Lord Walston, I found it helpful to have the details that the Minister gave us. I must declare a potential interest in that my wife has a very small hill farm in mid-Wales.
The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, spoke about public attitudes to farmers. If farmers are to be given more grant support—and I think it is right that they should be given this support, as suggested in the Bill—it is important that public opinion is carried with us. To
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secure this, diversification needs to be carried out with real concern for the environment and conservation. The need is to encourage management practices which will benefit conservation while helping farmers to increase their incomes in the way that the Government propose.
The chairman of the Nature Conservancy Council said today in introducing his annual report:
"The advent of the Environmentally Sensitive Areas was an important MAFF initiative which seems to have been greeted favourably by farmers. If the principles established within Environmentally Sensitive Areas were to be extended more widely, I believe we should be on the verge of a major breakthrough. The attitude too of most farmers and landowners has become immeasurably more sensitive".
I am greatly encouraged by those words.
I should like to ask the Minister what safeguards there will be—for example for the protection of wildlife habitats. I hope that grants will not be made if any plans propose damage to landscape or wildlife. Farm improvement schemes should, I am sure, include full details of environmental aspects.
It is reported that the eligibility conditions for the schemes are to be onerous and stringent. If so, I wonder why, because there is a need to encourage, not discourage, new entrants to farming, small, family farms and part-time farmers, who are often those who do most for conservation. It is not usually they who grub up hedges or shovel nitrogen on to the land. If the eligibility conditions are at present stringent, I suggest, with respect, that they need to be reviewed and the scheme made as widely available as possible.
I warmly welcome the objective of the farm woodlands scheme but, like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I am concerned about the possibility of more extensive planting of conifers. It was suggested in the consultation document that the aim should be to have 35 per cent. broadleaves in the lowlands and 5 per cent. in the severely disadvantaged areas. That means in fact 95 per cent. conifers in the uplands and up to 65 per cent. in the lowlands, which seems a lot. I am very concerned about acidification, which is damaging all the life in a number of the upland rivers in my part of Wales. We are quite rightly spending millions of pounds on flue gas desulphurisation to deal with the problem of acid rain, but it is well established now that there is a connection between the planting of conifers and the acidification of streams. This is a matter about which we need to take particular care.
We need to encourage native broadleaf schemes, not least to replace the trees devastated by the recent storms. I would prefer to see two-thirds broadleaves rather than the one-third suggested by the Government. I should like to give one other quotation from the speech made today by the chairman of the NCC. He said:
"Forestry, and indeed farm woodlands, have an important part to play in the rural economy but their design and management should also be related to nature conservation, and this is something which is improving fast. Above all, however, afforestation needs to be located in areas which are not of high wildlife interest and at present, despite intensive discussion with those concerned, we are still far from happy about what is happening".
I hope that the Government will pay attention to those words.

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It is important that the few remaining semi-natural habitats should not be disturbed. In her speech the Minister said that the timescale for both broadleaf and mixed woodlands was to be extended, and I warmly welcome that. But I wonder whether we need a cut-off period at all. Any finite period of years will tend to encourage intensive and therefore damaging forestry practices. I wonder whether we cannot have continuing management programmes.
I warmly welcome the Government's decision, announced by the Minister this afternoon, to abandon the plan to concentrate on marginal farming land and to look instead to improved land. That is important. There is also, I believe, a need for annual payments to rehabilitate existing farm woodlands which are at present excluded from the scheme. In my part of Wales where we have sessile oak woods, which used to be extensive but are now confined to steep river valley slopes, there is often a problem with over-grazing preventing regeneration. We must remember that the number of sheep in England and Wales has doubled since 1947. I wonder whether the scheme could not be extended to cover existing farm woodlands and possibly also hedgerow trees.
Lastly, I wonder whether the Countryside Commission and the Nature Conservancy Council will be consulted about what the Minister herself described as an experimental scheme. It is important that their advice should be available as the scheme develops.
5.5 p.m.
The Earl of Radnor: My Lords, I too welcome this enabling Bill. I am grateful to have a foresight into what the regulations might eventually hold. It comes in the face of farming going a little wrong compared with the happier days gone by and in the face of European and world surpluses in commodities. The point of it must be to help the farming community survive properly, the farmers to stay in business and the workforce to remain employed while at the same time doing something towards reducing those surpluses. Perhaps we should wonder whether it will achieve those two objectives in any large way. I certainly hope that it will.
Perhaps I may look first of all at the farm diversification and expansion grants. In regard to existing buildings and new buildings they will presumably give people scope and help them find out how to run businesses and whether they are likely to be viable. Somewhere down the line training must come in. For the life of me I cannot at the moment see some of my extremely skilled workers and those of my neighbours diversifying too far away from what they have been used to doing for a life time. Whether the Agricultural Training Board can deal with the situation I do not know, but it is an area that should be looked at.
Secondly, and perhaps a little contrary to my noble friend Lord Stanley, I wonder a little about planning as regards both diversification and expansion. Perhaps the two join together. Agricultural buildings up to a certain size do not need to have planning permission but if an expansion on a holding is
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Contemplated—to make icecream from milk, or something like that—and is successful, where does that expansion stop? Can the man who is successful be told when he wants to put up an enormous icecream factory that he must expand no further? The point intrigues me and perhaps my noble friend will be able to throw light upon it when she comes to reply.
I have mixed feelings about the forestry aspect. I am keen on woods but I feel it is somehow wrong that trees should be grown on grade 1 land, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that I feel it is equally wrong that trees should be grown on wild habitats up in the hills. They should be grown somewhere between the two; and to use an expression that was bandied about some time ago, trees should move down the hill to a certain extent.
It is all very well to say that the surpluses come from the good lowlands. In a way, they are the places where the crops should be grown. The surpluses come from people who grow winter wheat, for example, on land which is marginal for winter wheat but which has been very profitable. Those areas would be better suited to trees.
As regards the details that we have been given so far, I feel strongly that, in spite of the fact that my noble friend has been reasonably expansive, the money is still too little. My noble friend Lord Borthwick, who is no longer in his place, made the point about thinnings. It is so easy to confuse money coming in with profitable money coming in. The sizes are too small. I cannot speak about Ireland but I cannot see that to plant three hectares of any kind of wood, except for fun, is sensible. I think that the upper limit should be expanded beyond 40 hectares.
I should like to make one point very strongly. The trees will be monitored and, one hopes, looked after properly. I understand that the grant paid will be reviewed. That was so with the dedication scheme but the grants were reviewed very seldom and in rather a paltry manner. I suggest that when the regulations come into effect the grants, which have been outlined at so much per acre, should be indexed in some way so that there will be no falling back on an early promise. There was a great deal of resentment from some people who had dedicated their woodlands, which was an irrevocable act, as is planting trees. Over the years the money was gradually eroded until it made no sense at all.
In conclusion, I think that this must be a step in the right direction. In the European context I do not think that this will make a great deal of difference to any surpluses. On the other hand, I think that it is preferable to take a gradual step now rather than a large one.
5.13 p.m.
Earl De La Warr: My Lords, I should like to use the description that was used by the noble Lord, Lord Walston, and say that I regard this as a useful Bill and potentially moderately important. In the time that I shall allow myself I should like to talk about only one aspect, and that is the question of farm woodlands. I want specifically to deal with Clause 2(1)(b):
"grants for abating any financial loss which has been or will be suffered in consequence of the conversion of land from agricultural use to use for woodlands."

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That really is the nub of the clause and the scheme.
More than a year ago we in this House debated the last agricultural Bill. Although I am not given to quoting my own speeches unless I can possibly help it, I should like to remind your Lordships of one thing that I said. It was that pressures on farmers to reduce output were bound to increase whether by quotas or by managed set-asides.
"For the farmer the effect of those is exactly the same. All such pressures reduce his revenue, and most of that will go almost direct to the bottom line".
It is about the bottom line that I should like to talk tonight.
I should like to take one example and try some short verbal arithmetic. Let us assume that there is a farm of 100 acres on reasonable grade 3 land. It is growing 100 acres of wheat at roughly three tonnes to the acre and the farmer receives £100 per tonne—lucky man! Let us also assume that the fixed costs have been pared and are very tight. At the moment his revenue will be £30,000. Let us say that he spends £100 an acre on variable costs, which are sprays, fertilizers and seed—and that is all there are—that his fixed costs are £15,000 and that he makes a profit of £5,000. If he plants 5 per cent. of that land he will take 5 per cent. out of production and his revenue will decrease by £1,500. His expenses will decrease by only £500 because the fixed costs, as the noble Lord, Lord Walston, said, remain exactly the same. Therefore, it is a question of 5 per cent. off the revenue and 20 per cent. off the profit. If one increases the area of land planted to 10 acres, then it will be 10 per cent. off the revenue and 40 per cent. off the profit.
Let us be quite clear about the hard arithmetic. Every farmer must make his own calculations, but in the final analysis he is bound by his profit margin and the ratio of fixed costs to total costs. He will have to bear in mind not only the calculable loss of profit but also the fact that for the first time he is doing something permanent and irrevocable to his land. Next year he will not be able to say, "Well, we made a bog of that one, let's grow potatoes". No, it has gone and gone for good. I think that many farmers are likely to say, "Unless I get a really handsome recompense, it may be better to leave the land fallow. At least it will give me the opportunity to use it when times are better or when a new crop emerges that I should like to exploit". I believe that to be the kind of attitude that will be taken and I believe that it is the kind of attitude that should be taken. The industry is in no condition to do other than look carefully and continually at its costs and profits.
I look forward to hearing the response of my noble friend to a number of points that have been raised by your Lordships. In particular, I hope that she may be able to say a little more than she has said so far about the size of grants proposed. In this respect my hopes are not great because she has told us what they are to be and she has said that she thinks they are adequate. If adequate means fair, then maybe they are and maybe they are not. If adequate means effective, then I am sorry to have to say to my noble friend that I can see precious few farmers taking advantage of the offer from the Government if they apply the hard criteria which I have suggested are essential.
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I am not too sure that that will really matter. My noble friend has told us, and I agree, that this exercise is experimental. If we find that farmers are not tempted by this, the Government must think again as to whether it is worth offering more. Forestry is a long-term endeavour and we must not rush into things. I am reasonably happy with the observations of my noble friend, in view of the Government's experimental attitude to this project.
We must bear in mind at Committee stage that the Bill is simply an enabling Bill. However, it occurred to me—and I shall continue to stress this question of financial compensation or grants—that in the subsection to which I am speaking it might be better to use the phrase "loss of profit" rather than the words "any financial loss". I do not know exactly how that subsection should be worded. However, I believe that during the Committee stage we should explore the Government's attitude to this matter a great deal further than we have so far. I hope that as a result we shall obtain at least some useful information, if no immediate change.
I finish as I began by saying that this is a well intentioned Bill which could have some useful if modest results. It is on that basis that I welcome it.
5.21 p.m.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: My Lords, I was very pleased to hear my noble friend Lord Ferrers raise the matter of the appalling storm damage that has recently been sustained in the South of England. Before I continue, I must declare an interest in that on my land in the Stour Valley between Ashford and Canterbury where there are three estates—Olantigh, Godmersham and Chilham—the most appalling devastation has taken place. Thousands of trees, including very big trees have been uprooted; the whole park has been decimated. I understand that it will take at least two years to clear up.
Even inside the ha-ha—which means the grounds—pretty well all the trees have come down, including some rare and exotic specimens. The only tree of historic interest that withstood the storm is the king holm oak. Fortunately last year I had the dead wood cut out and the tree wired and supported, so it survived. I must not distress the House with my personal troubles, but I have always been a great planter of trees and taken a great interest in them, so the loss of so many of them has been quite a shock.
I congratulate the Government on what they are planning to do regarding the surpluses, which is a step in the right direction; although it will not solve the problem of the surpluses, even if it helps a little, as we have heard today.
Before turning to the subject of trees and Clause 2 of the Bill, I should like to point out that Clause 1 represents an opportunity for offering further recreational facilities to the public. Problems can of course arise when the public has too much access to nature walks, ponds or lakes that the farmer may create on his land; and to a certain extent such excessive access is destructive of wildlife and the natural habitat. No doubt, however, those problems can be sorted out.

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I am worried about taking too much grade 1 land out of cultivation. There is always the threat of disease and crop disasters in the world, and as the population is increasing we may find that by taking too much grade 1 land out of cultivation no more surplus grade 1 land remains available.
Over 20 years ago a friend of mine had an estate in New Jersey (or perhaps it was the state of New York). At that time the American Government had a great surplus of grain and agricultural produce, and they forbade landowners in certain areas to plant any crops but paid them a subsidy of so much per acre. The thinking behind that prohibition was that if there were a disaster in the world and a failure of crops, it would not be necessary to plough up trees that had been planted, as we are proposing to do—I am not objecting to that at all—since it would be very difficult to put that land back into productive use for farming. It would probably take three or four years to do so.
I should like to issue a warning to my noble friend on the Front Bench. There is a danger that if we go too far in this matter, should disaster strike the world—and I am not thinking of a third world war, as an atomic war is unthinkable, but rather in terms of crop disease—in view of the increases in population we might regret having done so if we were short of arable land.
We shall be taking some time this evening on the Committee stage of a Bill about horses. I shall be taking part in that debate, so I shall spend only a few more minutes speaking now. In my experience, often the farmers who own the land want to cut down all the trees—at least many farmers do, though some of course do not. Farmers who wish to take advantage of this scheme and put some of their land under trees must be given extremely good advice on the kind of trees to plant, distances between trees and so on.
What I am driving at, however, is that one must also consider the wildlife. Certain types of trees—spruce, for instance—grow so densely that no wildlife can live under them. Your Lordships will no doubt recall that I have spoken about Sitka spruce before. I understand that the Government want to encourage the planting of broadleaf trees. If such trees are planted in sufficient number they will be very beneficial to wildlife. Of course, as we all know, those trees can only be grown on the best-quality land, and so good land will have to be taken for that purpose. Some of the very poor grade land, if not taken up and planted, will also encourage the wildlife which inhabits those areas.
I must stop speaking soon, having already taken up seven minutes. I should like to end by saying that I support this Bill, though I do not think that it will make a great difference to the EC surpluses. It is a step in the right direction and I congratulate my noble friend on the way in which she introduced it.
5.30 p.m.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, I think that I can echo the small welcome given to the Bill by some of my noble friends. But it is an enabling Bill. In fact, it is the most enabling Bill that I have ever come across. The immortal phrase,
"contain such supplemental, consequential and transitional provision as the appropriate authority thinks fit; and … make different provision for different cases"
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occurs no less than twice. So I think I can say that this is a genuine enabling Bill, and I congratulate the noble Baroness on the vigour with which her noble friends defended her against the vicious attack by my noble kinsman with which I quite agreed.
However, let us take what the noble Baroness said in a Second Reading sense. I gather that the main objective of the Bill is to reduce the surpluses. In regard to that, my noble friend Lord Walston asked: where is the money coming from? The Minister might tell us what progress is being made with the EC in getting some of the money which can be saved from growing cereals. It must be a very great deal. On even two tonnes an acre, £30 to store each tonne of surplus and £70 to £80 of institution money to export it will amount to £200 an acre. At that rate you can afford to spend a good deal on alternatives and keep it. If, therefore, the noble Baroness can tell us what progress is being made with getting the funding from the EC I shall be very grateful. As at present constituted, the Bill will do nothing material to lower the amount of surplus grain produced.
The speeches of the noble Earls, Lord Ferrers and Lord De La Warr, were absolutely on the button as regards the situation in farming today. We need to look at a great many people in very different areas, in good arable areas and in marginal areas in the North-East of Scotland, which are in real trouble. If we are to produce a Bill which will keep people in the countryside, it must be—I have to say this—a great deal larger in commercial content than this one. It cannot really be an experimental Bill for very long, because the need to do something about retaining people in the countryside right now is urgent. Therefore, I think that the enabling Bill should have some broader clauses in it to enable other measures to be taken if money becomes available.
There are a whole lot of things which we shall need to know. I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Sanderson, on the Front Bench taking notes because there are many separate questions in Scotland including that of tenants. We have a much larger proportion of tenanted land—25 per cent. or thereabouts—and the provision for the planting of trees on tenanted land requires co-operation between landlord and tenant which does not exist at the present time. Therefore, there will be a difficulty.
I welcome the diversification part of the Bill. I know a little about it. I have seen a number of people who have done most excellent things in tourism, in retailing their produce and in providing other services. But, again, there are snags. For the crofters in Scotland to receive the hill cow subsidy, they need to derive half their income from farming. If they are to diversify so that they have more income, they can remove themselves from the ability to collect a subsidy on the hill cow. A whole number of these points need to be looked at as a matter of urgency.
Like the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, and very much unlike the noble Lord, Lord Moran, I believe that the scheme is aimed at the wrong place. The amount of money, if the figure is increased to £100 an acre, could well do a lot of good in a marginal area. If it were extended to putting many of these areas in Scotland, and even in England on the Downs, back into their

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traditional role of good, permanent pasture, properly managed in a dog and stick manner and combined with forestry, you might be doing a great deal of good there. But I agree totally with the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, that the amount of money offered will not cover the overheads of an arable farm on even grade 3 land. So there are many complications.
Farm forestry should be encouraged. But, it is no good giving a grant to a farmer to plant trees unless there is a reasonable acreage. It is also no good unless the grant is for over 100 per cent. of the cost. A grant of 90 or 80 per cent. presupposes that the farmer has some profit to plough back into the land when that profit is simply not there. I should like an assurance from the noble Baroness that the grants in these cases for planting and maintenance will be enough genuinely to replace some, at least, of the income which the farmer is losing.
The farm woodlands scheme is particularly important for retaining people in the countryside. What happens about some of the excellent schemes which cover areas of hill land, to the pleasure of some people and the dislike of others? The trouble with the big schemes is that they tend to be done by contractors. The men move in at a certain stage for thinning, felling, or whatever it is, and then move out again. If you can encourage a genuine farm woodlands programme you will hold people on the land and maintain the population of the countryside.
I welcome the Bill. We shall look at it and probably suggest a number of amendments and perhaps extensions. I hate to crab, but I believe that it is too little and too late. The noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, described it as well-intentioned. You know where good intentions lead us.
5.38 p.m.
Lord Carter: I should like to start by expressing a little disappointment at some remarks that were made by my noble friend Lord John-Mackie at the start of the debate, when he revealed that the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, had asked him not to be too hard on her. I was disappointed because I was rather flattered to think that I was the only person on whom she had tried this rather disarming technique.
It seems now that my noble friend and I are founder members of a small and exclusive club.
As has been said, this is an enabling Bill. I do not intend to criticise the Government for introducing the legislation in this way. It is an approach to legislation which will be a very useful device for a future Labour Government and it is well noted. Obviously we must await the detailed orders and instruments which will implement the Act. I too was disappointed by the amount of detail that we were required to absorb at the beginning of the debate. I have to confess that I am not as clever as the noble Lord, Lord Stanley of Alderley, and the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, so I found it hard to absorb it all. Obviously I shall have to read Hansard and the noble Baroness's speech extremely carefully, but we shall have a number of probing amendments to put down when we get to Committee stage.
We can all agree that the problems of surplus agricultural production must be dealt with and cured, but I beg leave to doubt whether farming salvation
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will be found through a combination of pony trekking, bed and breakfast and 90,000 acres of trees on grade 3 and 4 land—if the full acreage under the woodland scheme is achieved.
As regards Clause 1 I should like at the outset to declare an interest as an agricultural consultant, who might well be involved in some of the feasibility studies which will be grant-aided. There was a comment in the consultation paper and in the speech of jobs in agriculture. The chance to diversify on a larger farm could help to preserve farm jobs.
"to target assistance to small and medium sized farms".
I ask the noble Baroness to look hard at that restriction and to explain to us the reason for it. When we have debated agricultural matters in the past I have made the point on a number of occasions that it is the larger farms which produce the majority of jobs in agriculture. The chance to diversify on a larger farm could help to preserve farm jobs.
We also understand that the restriction of grant aid on salaries for marketing activities will not be paid to members of the farmer's family. The phrase used was "no family ties". I think I understand the reason for that, but again I ask the Government to consider the situation of the son or the daughter who is coming home to the farm and who, if they had the chance to be employed on the farm under this new diversified venture, might be prevented from being added to the pool of the young rural unemployed.
I have some specific points to make about the clauses in the Bill. My first point concerns the use of the phrase regarding "adjacent land". As we all know, a number of holdings are fragmented. What then is the purpose of this restriction on farms with adjacent land? I believe there is also an intention to restrict feasibility grants to one per farm. My experience as a consultant is that the first report one does often reveals that the opportunity being considered is not the right one but it identifies other opportunities. In that case will there still be grant aid forthcoming?
If the feasibility study which is grant-aided reveals that the project which is being considered is unviable, will the grant still be paid? I presume from the wording of the consultative document and from the remarks of the noble Baroness that the scheme will be cash limited. How does the department propose to ration grants as the financial year proceeds?
The noble Baroness mentioned that:
"priority would be given to certain types of farm business".
Will she tell the House the types of farm business that the Government have in mind? Obviously we welcome the suggestions regarding the tapering of marketing grants that the Government are considering and the reconsideration of the limits on the levels of grant aid.
A number of references were made in the debate to planning matters. If in fact there is a change of use will the planning fees which are involved be eligible for grant aid? In this sophisticated combination of capital grants, grants on the feasibility studies and the rest, how will the scheme deal with the definition of working capital? If there is a change of use, for example, and there is a diversification into bed and breakfast, tourism or a farm shop there are a number

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of incidental expenses involved which fall outside the capital grant area and the grants on the feasibility studies. Will the noble Baroness say therefore whether there will be any help in the form of grants towards the working capital of a diversified business?
It also seems from reading the consultation paper that conservation activities appear to be excluded as such, or is it intended that they will be caught under the other activities which are listed, which are recreation, amenity and leisure?
As a last point on the first clause, I must say that I was intrigued by a comment in the consultative paper which stated that one of the activities with which farmers could be helped was the provision of:
"wet weather games rooms for holidaymakers".
I wonder what exactly the Minister had in mind when she said that, because in her speech she also referred to those activities which occur naturally on a farm. When the statutory instrument is put down I wonder whether it will describe the equipment required and the pastimes which will be eligible for grant aid.
I now deal with the woodland clause, which is contained in Clause 2. This is extremely detailed. I wish to say at the outset that we can all agree that 30 million is an awful lot of trees, but it is the acres that matter, not the number of trees. The crucial point is the number of acres which are caught by the scheme. Whether the Government are successful in achieving their target of 90,000 acres to reduce the problems of surplus production is the important consideration. As everyone has agreed it is a modest scheme. The target is 36,000 hectares over three years.
I wish to quote from a report by the EDC on agriculture, Directions for change: Land Use in the 1990s, just to give an indication of the size of the problem.
"A study by the Agricultural Departments and the Forestry Commission speculated that the potential for new planting of this type"—
that is, farm woodlands
"might total around 80,000 hectares by the mid-1990s".
That indicates the size of the problem and the fact, as we have all agreed, that this is a modest start.
I must admit that I am puzzled as to the objectives of the Government in the Farm Woodland Scheme. When one reads the document which was released on the scheme one sees that the first intention was:
"to divert land from agricultural production and thereby assist in the diminution of agricultural surpluses".
The Government seem to be in a bit of a muddle on this, because over the page it states that those rates (which of course at the time were the lower rates):
"assume that planting would take place mainly on the more marginal farming land within each area, that such land would be … used for livestock rearing and that farmers would probably not choose to plant their most profitable land".
Obviously that is the crucial question—whether the increase in the grant, which of course we welcome, will be enough to persuade farmers to give up their arable farming and to plant trees. I shall return to that point.
Will environmental safeguards also be built in? One of the objectives that was stated in the consultation paper was:
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"to protect important habitats for wildlife".
It seems to me that the Government are trying to carry out a balancing act—to increase the production of timber, to secure improvements in the rural economy, to reduce the surpluses in farm production and at the same time to protect and enhance the environment.
I certainly agree that the numbers of trained staff who will be required to advise farmers on both diversification and farm woodlands should be increased. I should like to refer to the debate that took place in this House last evening on research and development. We would all agree that in the case of research into forestry and woodlands even a combination of the Prime Minister, the Treasury and the scientific adviser to the Cabinet could not argue that research into a crop that has a life of 30 years can be described as "near market research".
There is also a technical point on the effect of the Farm Woodland Scheme on farm tenancy agreements, as they will be involved. It is clear from what the noble Baroness said that arrangements between landlord and tenant will be voluntary and that the model clauses which have been agreed between the NFU, the TFA, the CLA and the RICS will be voluntary. There is a simple question to which I think I know the answer. If a landlord in fact says no, presumably the tenant will not be able to take advantage of the Farm Woodland Scheme?
I should like to conclude by returning to the central crucial point about the reduction of surplus production. We now see that it is suggested that the levels of grant aid on the lowlands will be £76 per acre and not the £50 that was suggested previously, with the maximum of 50 acres increased to 100 acres. The House will see that I am extremely old-fashioned and I work in acres rather than in hectares.
Is that enough? A number of noble Lords, all with experience in farming, would say that it is not enough, as evidenced in the speeches of the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, and the noble Lord, Lord Walston. There is no proportionate reduction in fixed costs as the farmer takes out small acreages of cereal to grow trees; we are all aware of that. What we as farmers will be considering is a judgment between a small acreage which we take out of arable crops and which will reduce our gross margins by perhaps £200 an acre, to be replaced by a figure of £76 per acre, which we are told rather vaguely will be reviewed over time. I should like to agree with the point which was made by the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, that the grants should be indexed from day one so that the farmer who is intending to take the decision knows where he is.
I think I must agree that this scheme, which is a modest start and experimental, as we all understand, will at the outset have little effect on surpluses at all. Even if in fact the Government achieve their target of 90,000 acres of land after three years, it will still not be enough to make much difference to surpluses of agricultural production.
As a final word, there has not been much discussion concerning the third clause of the Bill about the increase in the membership of the Development Commission, which we all welcome. It

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provides a chance to congratulate the Development Commission and CoSIRA on the excellent work that they do.
From this side of the House, we welcome the Bill. We will be constructively critical. We will obviously have to wait for the various orders and instruments that are required and we shall have much more to say when it comes to the Committee and the Report stages.
5.55 p.m.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I must say that I was disappointed by the noble Lords, Lord John-Mackie and Lord Walston, in their unusual remarks concerning my opening speech. It just shows that you cannot please all the people any of the time! However, it has always been my understanding that the proposer of a Bill must do his best to explain the contents and consequences of the Bill. I believe that when noble Lords come to read the debate they will find the answers to many of their questions. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, will also see that, contrary to what he said, this is a most helpful Bill for farmers who are looking into the future.
The noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, asked whether there were enough plants available for farm woodland schemes. We have had meetings with the nursery trade which show that they do not share the noble Lord's pessimism. However, there could certainly be problems if we were planning on planting the millions of acres which the noble Lords, Lord John-Mackie and Lord Walston, have suggested as the way in which the scheme should be expanded.
I should like to reiterate to the noble Lord, Lord Walston, that the scheme is experimental over the first three years. The noble Lord asked whether diversification grants will cover, for instance, access roads to picnic sites. He also mentioned the problems that may be encountered by farmers in getting planning permission for diversification. The answer to the first question is that it would be more appropriate to discuss the details of the capital grant scheme when the orders are laid before the House, as they shortly will be. However, I can assure the noble Lord today that access roads will be covered.
Secondly, the onus for obtaining planning permission for a diversified project will rest with the farmer and not with the Ministry. However, we are well aware of the potential difficulties. My right honourable friend the Minister and the Minister of State for Agriculture are in close touch with my honourable friend the Minister of State for Housing and Planning to ensure that unnecessary obstacles are not put in the way of farmers who are planning to diversify. The Government have already issued revised guidance to planning authorities earlier this year in Circular 16/87 on the need to respond sympathetically to applications for the conversion of redundant buildings.
With regard to the environmental point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Walston, Clause 2(4) provides that in exercising functions under the clause Ministers must have regard to the duty to achieve a balance between various interests, including the conservation and enhancement of the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside as required by Section
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17 of the Agriculture Act 1986. That provision imposes the same duty on Ministers in relation to farm woodland as already applies to them when exercising functions in relation to agriculture.
The noble Lord. Lord Borthwick, in his elegant maiden speech, was obviously worried about farmers not being good salesmen of timber. Clearly a great deal of advice will need to be made available to farmers, both on clearing woodlands and on selling their timber. I can assure your Lordships that that advice will be available from ADAS, the Forestry Commission and other sources. I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Borthwick, acknowledged that the markets for timber are now much stronger than they were a few years ago.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, spoke movingly of the glory of the trees in this country. As regards his proposed amendment, my first thought is that it might perhaps not sit happily in the Bill. However, we shall see.
I must thank my noble friends Lord Ferrers and Lord Stanley of Alderley for being my angels on horseback and defending my honour! I share the delight of my noble friend Lord Ferrers in the modest inclusion of the horse in this Bill. However, the possibility of horse activities in the diversification scheme does not mean that we are now treating the horse as an agricultural animal. It means that we may see the promotion of horse enterprises on farms as a very appropriate area into which farmers can now diversify out of agriculture.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about responses to the consultation document on the farm diversification grant scheme. I think he mentioned various countryside bodies who had not received a specific response, I reply by saying that over 100 comments were received in response to the consultation report. All have been acknowledged and carefully considered. As a result, a number of significant changes are being made to the scheme to respond to the comments received. All those who commented will be notified of those changes once the scheme orders have been laid before Parliament.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, also asked why Section 17 of the Agriculture Act 1986 was not expressly applied to Clause 1. There was some doubt about whether Section 17 applies to farm woodlands. Therefore, we wished to make sure that it would. There is no need to do that in Clause 1 since Section 17 already applies to diversification.
I take very much to heart the point of my noble friend Lord Radnor about training. It is certainly not our intention that bad husbandry should accompany the planting of trees. He is worried about the rates of payment being too small and feels that they should be indexed. We have today announced significant increases over the original payments. Therefore, we can only wait to see whether they are sufficient. We have said that rates will be reviewed regularly.
I suggest to my noble friend Lord De La Warr that farmers will have to decide what the long-term prospects are for their main business activities. Obviously I understand the point about fixed costs but I say to my noble friend that surely we are right to try something positive, especially in view of the experimental nature of the scheme.
Earl De La Warr: My Lords, will my noble friend allow me to intervene? The noble Baroness will recall, I am sure, that I said myself that it was experimental. It may work. That does not matter. I gave it a welcome at the beginning and at the end.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I am most awfully grateful for everything kind, charming, helpful and intelligent that my noble friend has said.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, which of those epithets apply to my noble friend's intervention?
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I do not think we should go on with this conversation.
I make special mention of the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, who quite renewed my faith in the Mackie family. He asked me about funding from the EC. It may seem a small measure, but we are working within the EC to convince member states of the need for such things. My right honourable friend the Minister is working patiently and very hard to achieve results in the next Council meeting in a fortnight's time.
With regard to the progress with EC funding giving potential savings on cereals at present grown on surplus land, the farm woodlands scheme is a national scheme since EC forestry policy does not yet exist. However, my right honourable friend will in the coming weeks be issuing a consultation document on the so-called extensification scheme.
My noble friend Lord Stanley of Alderley, while welcoming the Bill, pointed out that it must be seen in the wider context of reforming the common agricultural policy. This is a point which I am most ready to accept. Our new schemes are complementary to, and will help to contribute to progress in, the reform of the CAP. I also agree that a major plank of that reform must be price restraint because of the need for a clearer signal to be given to farmers throughout the Community of the consequences of surplus production.
However, because of the scale of the change which is facing farmers the Government are also encouraging alternative enterprises and alternative uses of surplus land; hence the need for this Bill.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moran, who introduced some extremely interesting issues to which we shall no doubt return during the later stages of this Bill. Both my noble friend Lord Ferrers and my noble friend Lord Massereene and Ferrard expressed concern about the effect of recent storms. I offer my sympathy to my noble friend Lord Massereene.
The swift response of the Government to the widespread devastation to trees in the South and the East of England has been widely welcomed. A special unit called Task Force Trees has been set up by the Countryside Commission to co-ordinate the emergency programme, to assess the scale of the damage, determine priorities, give advice and arrange for the payment of grants.
The Government are providing the commission with an extra £2·7 million in this financial year towards the cost of the programme. Our aim is to achieve the restoration as soon as possible of our heritage of fine trees for future generations to enjoy.
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That money will be channelled to individuals through local authorities. There will be grants for restocking woodlands and they will also be available from the Forestry Commission to individuals.
The Forestry Commission has already appointed a forest windblow action committee to deal with the problems of woodlands owners affected by storm damage. This committee has appointed a windblow task force supported by several advisory groups. Its remit is to look at specific aspects of the problem, for example, harvesting, marketing and restoration of the woodlands. The first priority is to assess the scale of the damage. Action is now proceeding urgently and advice to woodland owners will be issued by the action committee.
The noble Lord, Lord Carter, referred to adjacent land in the definition of farm business. This enables the ancillary business to be situated on a site next to the farm and still be grant-aided under Clause 1. The noble Lord asked about feasibility studies of one per annum. My answer is, normally yes, but with some flexibility for future grants if the study suggests some other approach.
Lord Carter: My Lords, actually it was one per farm and not one per annum.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I am terribly sorry. You are perfectly right. I misread my note, and I repeat that for Hansard: feasibility study of one per farm. The next point raised was: if a feasibility study indicates non-viability, will the grant for the study be paid? To that my answer is, yes, if the feasibility study is carried out as approved. The third question was concerned with cash limits and which businesses will receive priority. Ministers may stop approvals if allocated resources appear to be in danger of being exhausted. Ministers have yet to decide how priorities will be allocated.
The noble Lord will forgive me if in my efforts not to upset the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, twice in one day I do not answer any more of his questions. I shall write to him on the other points he made. I shall not attempt an elegant last word. I commend the Bill to the House.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Data Protection (Subject Access Modification) (Social Work) Order 1987
Data Protection (Miscellaneous Subject Access Exemptions) Order 1987
Data Protection (Regulation of Financial Services etc.) (Subject Access Exemption) Order 1987
Data Protection (Subject Access Modification) (Health) Order 1987
6.7 p.m.
The Minister of State, Home Office (The Earl of Caithness)The Minister of State, Home Office (The Earl of Caithness) rose to move, That the draft orders laid before the House on 21st October be approved. [3rd Report from the Joint Committee.]
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move that the four orders under the Data Protection Act 1984 that stand in my name on the Order Paper be approved. Unless any of your Lordships objects, it will, I believe, be for the convenience of your Lordships' House if we were to consider the four orders together since they all in various ways relate to the common issue of the right of subject under the Data Protection Act.
In briefly introducing them I will, with permission, refer to them more shortly than their official titles, as the health order, the social work order, the financial services order and the exemptions order.
The intention of each of these orders is to modify in some way the operation of the subject access provisions of the Act. Some of your Lordships may perhaps feel that this is an example of the Government trying to take away with one hand what has been provided by the other; that no sooner is a right of access written into legislation than we come along with statutory instruments designed to whittle it away. That is not the case here.
The Act itself recognises exemption from the need even to register in cases of national security. It provides also that the right of subject access should not extend, for obvious reasons, to data held for the purpose of prevention and detection of crime, the apprehension and prosecution of offenders, or assessment or collection of tax or duty. It is recognised in the Act, moreover, that further modifications to the subject access provisions may be needed in certain defined circumstances. The Act empowers the Secretary of State by order to provide exemptions from, or to modify the provision related to, subject access in relation to health, social work and financial service data and data protected from disclosure by other enactments. The orders before your Lordships are in precisely these fields, which, as I say, were quite specifically foreshadowed in the Act itself, as requiring special arrangements.
With your Lordships' permission, I will now deal briefly with the intentions of each of the orders. Section 29(1) of the Data Protection Act allows the Secretary of State to exempt from the subject access provisions or to modify those provisions in relation to personal data consisting of information as to the physical and mental health of the data subject which is held by or was recorded by or on behalf of a health professional.
The health order enables a data user to withhold data which is likely to cause serious harm to the physical or mental health of the data subject and also data which might lead to the identification of another individual other than a health professional who has been involved in the care of the data subject. The general assumption is that information will only be withheld on the advice of a health professional, and then only when it meets the strict criteria of serious harm or when it would enable another person to be identified.
Data users in all other cases will be obliged to supply as much information as possible without causing serious harm or enabling another individual to be identified. In those cases where data are withheld the data subject will not be informed since
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to do so may itself cause the serious harm which the withholding was calculated to prevent. The Act is concerned essentially with allowing rather than withholding access and it is possible that where information is withheld the data subject may nonetheless be able to benefit from professional counselling.
The social work order, made under powers in Section 29(2) of the Act, deals with data held for, or acquired in the course of, social work and modifies the access provisions in this area. Article 3 specifies the data concerned which broadly is that held or acquired for social work functions by government departments, local authorities and other specified bodies including designated voluntary organisations of which the NSPCC and its Scottish equivalent are the only ones to have applied for designation. The order does not apply to the subject's health data, to which the health order applies—that is, this order does not apply to data held by, or consisting of information first recorded by, a health professional.
The access provisions are modified by disapplying the requirement to supply data when to do so would be likely to prejudice the carrying out of the social work where there is a risk that serious harm could be caused to the physical or mental health or emotional condition of the data subject or any other person, or that the identity of another individual, not himself a social work professional, could be identified or deduced—unless, that is, he has consented to the disclosure. The order makes clear the intention that as much data as possible should be disclosed so long as the purpose for which it was obtained is not prejudiced. In general terms this means that the benefit which the social work is expected to confer on the subject must not be frustrated by the disclosure.
The third order before your Lordships is the financial services order. This is made under the power in Section 30(2) of the Act and designates certain functions conferred by or under a statute relating to, inter alia, the regulation of financial services. Data held for the purpose of discharging these functions will be exempt from the access provisions where to grant access would be to jeopardise the performance of the functions.
The Act recognised this need for restriction since it might, for example, relate to suspected malpractice. Your Lordships will readily appreciate that to grant an individual access to data from which he could discover exactly what was known about him by the regulatory authorities might lead him to attempt to escape justice or to cover his tracks and make the conclusive uncovering of the malpractice that much more difficult. We have had here to weigh the rights of the individual against the need for confidentiality.
We have thought it right to recognise the special responsibility of the regulatory bodies for identifying and taking action against financial wrongdoing. Your Lordships may recall that a provision was inserted in the Financial Services Act 1986 to make it clear that self-regulating organisations and recognised professional bodies could be designated under the Data Protection Act in order that they might be exempted from the subject access provision in respect of some of the data which they hold.
I come, finally, to the last of these orders, the exemption order, which is made under powers in Section 34(2) of the Act. This exempts from the access provisions any personal data the disclosure of which is prohibited or restricted by the enactments and instruments listed in the schedule. The Government consider that these prohibitions or restrictions should prevail over the subject access provisions. The order covers three broad areas: adoption records and reports used in adoption proceedings or kept in the possession of adoption societies and local authorities; statements and records of the special educational needs of children; and in Scotland, information provided by reporters at children's hearings.
I should refer at this point to an issue which has been raised on this order by the Joint Committee. The committee has taken the view that there is doubt about the vires of the second entry in Part III of the schedule to the order in that it refers to an Order in Council which I am informed is shortly to be laid before Parliament reforming the law in Northern Ireland concerning adoption and which will bring that law into line with that in England under the Adoption Act 1976. It would obviously be inconvenient to have to lay another exemption order before your Lordships' House after the Northern Ireland order has been made, which is why we sought to cover the point in this way.
I accept the committee's objection is arguable, although the point was carefully considered when the order was being drafted and the view was taken that, on balance, this drafting device was both intra vires and perfectly proper. Nevertheless, as the Joint Committee has expressed a doubt about it, we shall consider whether we should take a suitable opportunity of bringing forward another order to clear up the point when the Northern Ireland adoption order has been made.
The orders have all been subject to detailed and lengthy consultations between the Home Office and the Government departments primarily concerned with the subject matter. They in turn have consulted widely among the relevant professional bodies and other groups outside Whitehall. In accordance with the provisions of the Act, the Data Protection Registrar has been consulted. I invite your Lordships to approve the four orders.
Moved, That the draft orders laid before the House on 21st October be approved. [3rd Report from the Joint Committee.]—(The Earl of Caithness.)
6.15 p.m.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, the memories of your Lordships may go back, some of them nostalgically and some not so nostalgically, to the deliberations of the House on the Data Protection Bill. This is the first time, so far as I recollect, that the provisions have been brought back here in such a positive form, in that, after due consideration, the exemptions of the rights of data subjects are being considered in four fields, which your Lordships may have felt appropriate after the very clear explanation given by the noble Earl of the provisions of these orders, for which we are all indebted to him.
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I do not intend to waste the time of the House in discussing those orders relating to education, adoption proceedings, social services and financial services, which quite obviously I should have thought will have your Lordships' agreement. I merely want to concentrate for a few moments on the important order which deals with the exemption of the rights of a data subject on matters of health.
As the noble Earl rightly said, we had a section in the Act—my recollection is that it is Section 29—which provided for provisions to be made where the mental and, indeed, ordinary health of the subject is in question. I noted, as your Lordships will have done, that the exemption with which we are dealing, obviously a very sensible one, has appended the adjective "serious" to the health and mental health provisions. I do not intend to dwell on this for very long because, as your Lordships well know, it is not possible to move an amendment to an order. One either agrees with or disagrees with the order.
I agree with the order but I cannot move an amendment. However, if I were able to do so I might have proposed that the word "serious" may prove troublesome in the future. It is sufficient to say that as regards the mental and physical health of the subject if the information is deemed to be harmful by those qualified to say whether or not it is, that is a sufficient cause for withholding it. I would have gone that far, and I believe that some difficulty might occur with the medical practitioner or, indeed, a dentist talking in terms of "serious" impairment to health.
Having made that preliminary point, which is not of grave consequence, I should like to refer the Minister to the concern which the national council looking after nurses, midwives and health visitors has about a provision in this order. It is a disciplined body. It has ethical rules and so on, as your Lordships will know, which guide its members, and indeed its members are responsible for keeping those principles. They regard their dignity, status and responsibility very highly. I need not lecture your Lordships on the way in which all of us value the services, particularly of the nurses.
In this order priority is given to medical practitioners—priority is also given to dentists, but I shall concentrate on medical practitioners—to decide about a relevant entry that is made in regard to the medical and mental condition of a patient, as to whether that entry is disclosable or not, bearing in mind the effect it might have on the patient.
The nurses, midwives and health visitors are only to be consulted in regard to such a matter if there is no medical practitioner available. The nurses, midwives and health visitors feel that where they have made a note themselves and where there is recorded data for which they are responsible, bearing in mind their professional responsibility, if anyone wants to shoot at them, if I may use the vulgarism, as a result of that entry, then they themselves ought to be the parties—whether or not there is a doctor available—where they have made the entry, to decide whether the data subject should have access to it.
It is a feeling not just of hurt pride but of professional responsibility. I believe the Minister might well wish when replying to the observations I

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have seen fit to make to make an announcement which in some way will satisfy the people who operate in the field of social service and the nation's health, for which all of us have a profound respect.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: My Lords, I should like to join the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, in thanking the noble Earl for his clear, concise and comprehensive introduction to the scope of these orders. I rise to give a broad but nevertheless cautious welcome to the four orders, for what they are worth. I do not wish to be thought to be damning them with faint praise, because on the whole I feel that they represent a step forward in the right direction.
I certainly congratulate the Government on having resisted the pressure brought upon them from some medical quarters to seek that exemption from access should have been directed to all medical records. I also welcome the change in the text for withholding exemption under the health order, which now includes the expression "serious harm", to which the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, has referred. I think that is an improvement on the terms used in the DHSS regulations issued recently. However, I would tentatively suggest, if without perhaps the charm of the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, in trespassing upon difficult ground perhaps that the word "serious" in that connotation may bring a certain kind of difficulty in practice.
I also welcome the fact that provisional judgments made by social workers have now been exempted from access in the social work order. Also to be welcomed is the fact that the protection for the identities of third parties will not prohibit the disclosure of the names of doctors, social workers or other professional staff involved with a data subject.
However, I have a fairly serious criticism in that none of the orders, even the orders dealing with health matters, allows access to manual records. I understand that there now appears to be considerable support for such access to manual records. The distinction which is made in the Data Protection Act between manual and computer records seems to me somewhat arbitrary. I should be grateful if the Minister, if he felt able to do so on an occasion like this, could give us some indication of why that distinction is still being adopted in regard to health matters.
It may be known to the Minister that the Data Protection Registrar has recently commissioned a poll and has found that eight out of 10 people in that poll thought that the Data Protection Act was to apply to manual records. As I say, perhaps the Minister may be able to indicate why the reservation is still being pursued in regard to health matters.
I should now like to join the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, in what he said so eloquently about the position of nurses. I hope the Minister will be able to say something about the nurses, who do so much for so many for so little. The Royal College of Nursing, as the Minister will know, has raised a claim that the health and social work order, in so far as it affects them, is very restrictive. It produces complex access procedures for nurses and puts the medical and dental profession in a central position, which is not totally acceptable to nurses.
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The other question I should like to ask the Minister is whether he can do anything about fees. I believe at the present time that there is a maximum fee of £10 for obtaining simple information from a single computer held by a single computer user. In practice there are bound to be multiple applications, and therefore I wonder whether the Minister has in mind, any method by which the cost might be reduced because of the special circumstances of the people making the application.
The last point I want to raise is this. I have not given notice to the Minister about it but I have given notice to the advisers. I have been looking at the order on financial services and have glanced through the list on the various pages to which the functions apply. I have also read the explanatory note in the order. I only wondered, in view of my special expertise in the field of patents, whether there should be a reference somewhere to the very important activities of the Comptroller-General of Patents under the Patents Act 1977. If I were asked to give an immediate answer, I should have thought that the Patents Act would require to be mentioned on the list, but I raise this in case I am wrong.
Lord Terrington: My Lords, let me say just a few brief words about the third order, because I consider that to be a most important one? During the Committee stage of the Financial Services Bill in 1986 I introduced an amendment on this subject. It was designed to ensure that SROs were able to perform their investigatory duties without fear of falling foul of the Data Protection Act's provisions regarding a person's right to access to any data held on an electronic database.
I was particularly concerned that investigations by the Stock Exchange's surveillance division into breaches of its membership rules could be compromised if a data subject demanded access to all personal information held on the Stock Exchange database. Such access could of course lead to that person who was being investigated destroying or altering prior to a disciplinary hearing whatever he wanted to change. As I understand it now, under this order that is no longer a possibility. I am therefore most grateful to the Government for the action that they have taken following the amendment I introduced in Committee.
6.30 p.m.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I am grateful to those of your Lordships who have taken part in this most useful debate on subject access. We have had a most interesting debate on the Data Protection Act and the question of subject access. It is a measure of the general interest in this new statutory right for the individual to have access to data recorded about him on computer that your Lordships have been present and contributed.
As I said in my opening remarks, I understand that the registrar is to undertake a publicity exercise shortly so that everyone may be aware of the opportunity which is to be theirs from next Wednesday. I should like to pay a tribute to the work the registrar has undertaken since the Act came into force. It will be an additional benefit from our debate,

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and that held earlier in another place, that we too shall have helped to make the availability of subject access more widely known.
I should like to thank the noble Lords, Lord Mishcon and Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, for the welcome they gave to the orders. They have been worried about the nursing profession. I have been tackled outside the Chamber by some of your Lordships, including the noble Lord, Lord Meston, who sent his apologies via me for not being able to be here at the moment. It has been brought to my attention already that the nursing, midwifery and health visiting professions have expressed much concern that the health order denies them the right to be consulted by the data user before the decision is taken as to whether information should be released, and that only doctors and dentists are recognised as health professionals who are qualified in that respect.
I am happy to confirm that nurses, midwives and health visitors are all recognised as health professionals under the order. The data user must consult the most appropriate health professional to decide whether to withhold access. Of course in the hospital environment, in the majority of cases this will be the doctor or dentist carrying overall clinical management responsibility for the patient. I can assure the House that in such circumstances the DHSS guidance makes it absolutely clear that this practitioner should seek the advice of other health professionals who have had a significant input into the patient's care. Those professionals are to be consulted by the practitioner and will include nurses, midwives and health visitors. I hope that satisfies the major concern of the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords—
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I shall go further.
Lord Mishcon: Good!
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, there will also be circumstances in which doctors have not been involved. It will be appropriate for the data user to contact one of the other 17 health professionals listed in the schedule to the order. It is for the data user to decide who is the most appropriate health professional. In many cases, especially in respect of work in the community, the most appropriate professional is likely to be the nurse. That position is provided for in the order and is reflected in the guidance issued by the DHSS. I hope that covers the second point of the noble Lord's concern.
Another point raised by the noble Lords, Lord Mishcon and Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, was the inclusion of the word "serious". I gather that I was pretty unpopular in the office yesterday because I did not have anything to do with criminal justice. I am delighted to get back to drafting such matters with the noble Lords. We believe that to delete "serious" would mean that more information would be withheld than in the present case. That is the reason for including it in the wording. It is also the word used in the Council of Europe recommendation on automated medical databanks.
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The noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, asked about manual records. The proposals do not apply to manual records, though the Government recognise that the public will expect the principles of access to computerised records to be extended to manual records. The DHSS has commenced discussions with the key professional bodies to explore how greater access to manual records might be achieved. The operation of the Data Protection Act will provide useful lessons in that field. I agree with the noble Lord; I doubt whether the Patent Act falls within the vires of Section 30 of the Data Protection Act. I should like to check on that point once again, and perhaps I can write to the noble Lord about it.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: My Lords, I thank the Minister.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Terrington. We owe him a debt of gratitude for introducing the amendment. The provisions of this order flow from what the noble Lord said in Committee.
In conclusion, your Lordships will wish to know that we and the registrar intend to keep the operation of the Act under review, and if it appears necessary we shall not hesitate to revise the procedures in order to improve the operation of the Act, within the framework of the data protection principles set out in the European convention.
The Government believe that the orders are necessary in order to allow the right of subject access under the Act to operate in a satisfactory manner, and that they strike a proper balance between the rights of the individual and the wider public interest. I commend them to your Lordships, and invite the House to approve them.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Sunday Sports Bill [H.L.]
6.36 p.m.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Wyatt of Weeford.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD CULLEN OF ASHBOURNE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Admission to tracks on Sundays]:
Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 7, after ("track") insert ("licensed under Schedule (Licensing of Tracks for Sunday Sport) and").
The noble Lord said: I categorise this amendment as the local option issue. I should like to explain why I believe it is necessary and will be beneficial to the Bill's promoters. I shall refer to the speech made on

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Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, in which he said:
"This is a harmless little Bill. It can hurt no one".—[Official Report, 15/7/87; col. 1105.]
I looked at the Independent today. A gentleman called Ken Jones says:
"It is really the Sunday Racing Bill and therefore the Sunday Betting Bill".
The noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, may be right; Ken Jones may be right. I merely illustrate that there is some dubiety as to the Bill's purpose and consequences. In asking the Committee to support the premise of my amendment, I wish to speak about one or two other interests that do not see the Bill as harmless. In the Newmarket Weekly News in September the head lad at Henry Cecil's yard said:
"I am 100 per cent. against Sunday racing. We work enough hours in the day now. It would disrupt what family life we have. About 55 out of the 60 lads here are against it, and so is everyone I have spoken to".
I listened to a debate on the radio on Tuesday morning in which the whole issue of Sunday, not solely sport, was introduced. I took careful note of one lady who said that she had worked for the Tote. She declared herself to be totally against Sunday racing. She also said that 50 of the employees in the team with which she worked were against it.
I shall bring before the Committee the views of various other interests. With great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, the picture that he painted is not the picture that has been drawn to my attention. I am certainly not against horseracing or betting. I attend horseracing meetings and I bet. I am against the Bill because it is deficient in a number of important areas.
The Bill says nothing about the protection of employees. I have read the fine words saying that they will be looked after and that negotiations will resolve the issue. We all know that protections must be written into a Bill. I say that with no disrespect to the integrity of those who believe that matters can be resolved. When we consider other issues, I shall be more definite about what those in the industry feel in regard to their chances of proper protection.
The amendment says that when a race meeting takes place other people are affected besides those who race or who work at the racecourse. There are the people round the track; there are those who are forced to work in other ways; there is the total environment. The Bill purports to be concerned not only with racing—if the Bill dealt with racing only it would be easier to debate—but with sport in general. When a sporting event is likely to occur on a Sunday, I submit that the community in the surrounding area can be affected detrimentally.
The schedule proposed in a later amendment says that when the Bill is enacted the licensing authority will have the power to take into account not only those who ride racehorses or make profits out of the industry but also others who are even more detrimentally affected, that is, the people living in the community.
The proposed new schedule states:
"The licensing authority may refuse to grant the licence if they are satisfied that, in the event of the licence being granted, the existence or user of the track would injuriously affect either the health or the comfort of persons residing in the neighbourhood of the track, or be
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detrimental of the interests of persons receiving instructions or residing in any institution in that neighbourhood".
It has to be satisfied that that would happen, but no protection would be provided. The schedule continues,
"would seriously impair the amenities of that neighbourhood".
I invite the Committee to say that a responsible body, if it considers that that would happen, has a choice: either to ignore it or act upon it. The schedule continues,
"would result in undue congestion of traffic or seriously prejudice the preservation of law and order".
I suggest that those are reasonable criteria and preconditions for a community that may or may not want the event to take place but that will be affected by the event taking place.
I understand the general trend towards sport on Sunday and what might be called liberalisation. I take strong issue with those who say that it is all or nothing at all, that there are no half-way houses and that because no protections can be built in one must accept or reject. However, if it is a question of the legal right to race horses on a Sunday, that provision can be made without detriment of the kind to which I have referred.
In considering the interests affected, one needs to ensure a balance of interests. I shall be interested to hear the views of those who oppose the amendment and who believe that the interests of residents, traffic and the general environment can be protected by some means other than legislation. I am open to persuasion. As we consider the amendments, I hope to hear that the interests of various groups of people are considered to be as important as racing horses or making money, the two prime purposes of the Bill. If I can be persuaded that those who wish to race horses and make money are prepared to tailor the Bill to take account of the interests that I have put forward, then I believe that the Bill can be passed to the satisfaction of the Committee.
The promoters of the Bill seem to believe that they have taken into account the interests of the people I have mentioned and that they have consulted them. I have not been briefed in detail, but I have read the newspapers. When we come to consider the employee issue, I shall certainly quote the trade union that represents employees and many others. I invite the Committee to say that if the Bill is to go forward we can improve it.
As a local government man all my life before entering the other place and then your Lordships' House, I have always firmly believed in the ability of a local council, regardless of its political complexion, to judge the issues affecting the local community and to be responsible for its interests. The council invariably consists of those living in the locality. Many noble Lords who will vote in favour of racing taking place in certain parts of the country do not live in those parts; they visit on race days. What is at issue is the people who live in an area. Local councillors move about, listen to the people and are advised by them. At the end of the day, they will carry the can. Unless there is a mechanism to provide a voice for the local community, we shall be guilty of enacting one sided legislation. I am certain there will be some contention on that issue.
I seek a willingness on the part of the promoters to take account of the interests that I have mentioned. They should not seek to escape by saying that this is a simple and harmless little Bill.
6.45 p.m.
Viscount Brentford: In supporting the amendment, I welcome the principle of the Sunday sports law being updated in a form in which it is right. The question before us is what that form should be. I support Sunday recreation—good family recreation or other activity. However, I am not in favour of total deregulation of all Sunday sporting activity.
Let me remind the Committee of the Crathorne Committee of1964. Many of its arguments remain valid. The report stated that,
"there is a case for some relaxation of the prohibition on spectators' sports on Sunday but we do not recommend that it should be completely abolished".
I subscribe to that view. I believe that we need to work out the considered and sensible application of that principle. There should be a balance between the needs of those who want the sport and those whose interests conflict, and we need to find the right balance. It is an important question. The interests of many people will be affected. The noble Lord, Lord Graham refers to the police in the proposed schedule. The local police force is important. Then there are the people who live in the area of the track, the governing bodies of schools, other institutions and the licensing authorities, all of whom could be affected.
If the local community believed that the opening of a track would seriously affect the local amenities, the local authority should have some say as to whether or not it was right to open. The local authority is in a position to balance these conflicting interests. It might give rise to undue traffic congestion on a Sunday. Those who live in the area of a football stadium have said to me that they dread to think of losing the peace of Sunday when the football stadium is opened in their vicinity.
This procedure of a licensing authority has worked well for licensing of sports stadia for betting facilities for many years. I believe that we should give it a try to see whether it will meet the needs of the local authority area. The Crathorne Committee said that we should hit a balance. I believe that we should have a balance, and that the local authority could provide the answer. I support this amendment.
Lord Milverton: I rise to support this amendment. It is very important that a check is kept on Sunday sports. Many people wish that Sundays should not be unnecessarily disturbed by those wishing to play sport. Where this concerns horseracing, or sports where there is gaining and getting of money, one cannot help asking whether it is really necessary on seven days of the week to think just of gaining and getting.
One may ask a person in my position about a sport such as cricket. Perhaps one is splitting hairs if one says that that is slightly different. On behalf of those who have strong feelings on conscience and about family life I support the principle behind the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Graham of
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Edmonton. This Bill needs to be made thoroughly safe. I support this amendment and all the others. Let us not make Sunday simply another weekday.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: I support this amendment as moved by my noble friend. It seems to produce a compromise which, as he explained, would allow for racing on Sunday at the same time as providing a safeguard for local communities.
I remember the arguments put forward against the idea of local control on Sunday trading. The main argument was that traders would face a very real risk of losing business to their competitors across local authority boundaries. There was therefore a need to avoid regional discrepancies in order for justice to be done in the market place. However, our local authority sports option deals not so much with public justice as with public nuisance. Moreover, a sports fixture can always be rescheduled. The demand for Sunday sport is not so great that many sports would be competing for spectators within a locality. This contrasts directly with the local trade option, where competition is very concentrated.
The issue here is not one of justice but more of nuisance. Under a local sports option the local community has within its grasp the power to say no to the opening of a track on Sunday because it feels that it would impair the amenities of the district and disturb the peaceful environment that it prefers to have one day a week. After all, the local population will know and experience the consequence of Sunday sport. I feel that on reasonable criteria it is in a better position to decide than a similar form of centralised control.
The most important result of including this amendment in the Bill would be to safeguard the interests of the local community. It is the lack of such safeguards in the Bill at present that worries so many people.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Perhaps my noble friend will be good enough to confirm that she is speaking on this matter in a personal capacity from the Dispatch Box, because it is the tradition on our side that we do not take an official view on Private Members' Bills.
Lord Denning: When we had the Sunday trading Bill I was in favour of local options, of the local community granting permission or not, with regard to do-it-yourself centres or garden centres and so on, because this is a matter which concerns a community and the attitudes in one district or county of England are different from those of another. I do not live so very far away from a big racecourse. It is the nuisance—the congestion on the roads, and matters of that kind—which affect the local people. Let it be a local option. Let it be dealt with by the local authority, which knows the feelings of the place. I support the amendment.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: It would not be a harmless little Bill if, as the noble Lord, Lord Graham, would like, we spawned from it a vast host of new licensing authorities. I cannot imagine anything worse than the spattering blare of lots of little committees and

1137
authorities all deciding whether or not this cricket field, that football pitch or that athletic ground should be allowed to open.
The schedule provides that one obtains a licence for two years and one has to notify in advance of the whole two years how many Sundays one proposes to use the sports ground on in each year. That is a total impossibility. If one takes the example of football, there might be a replay of some important cup match. How does one know on which Sunday, or on how many Sundays, this will take place? Although there may be a good intention behind this schedule, it is utterly impractical and would make restriction where none exists today.
We already have at least 3 million people a year attending sporting functions for which they are charged entry. There is none of this regulation. I thought that we had reached a period in our lives where we wanted less regulation and not more, especially when it is quite unnecessary. I do not see how anybody will be able to say so long in advance what grounds will be used, when, for what and why.
I should like to correct one misapprehension which seems to be gaining ground quite rapidly this evening. This is not a Bill simply about racing. It covers the whole of sport in Great Britain. It covers Wimbledon finals on Sundays or the Liverpool v. Everton cup match last Sunday, which was broadcast by the BBC. That was of course aiding and abetting the keeping of a disorderly place! Do let us realise that we are not talking in this Bill about one narrow aspect of sport but about all the sporting activities of this country which are very much valued. Many would like to be able to perform them on Sundays as well as any other day.
7 p.m.
Lord Elton: The noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, has usefully reminded Members of the Committee that this is a Bill not only about racing—although it was as a Bill about racing that it came to my attention very belatedly in the last 36 hours. As it is a Bill on racing, it is also a Bill about betting, as the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, has said.
It is difficult to dissociate the two considerations, but if we can for a moment I should like the Committee to consider the local disruption that can occur when a large sporting event takes place either close to or, as happens in places like Leicester, in the middle of a large community. All the people who live there are affected in one way or another.
There are those who want to take part in whatever joyful activity it may be and there are those who have to provide the services for them. There are those whose livelihood depends upon providing those services and who will not be looked well upon by their employers if they decline so to do, whatever any act of Parliament may say about wrongful dismissal. There are those whose duty it is to keep the traffic moving and those whose duty it is to separate the fierce and sometimes bloodthirsty encounters of those who are not participators in but spectators at the joyful and harmless occupation. There are those who have to get the crowds there and those who have to bring them back.
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We are talking not only about the little local cricket club, the ground, that the noble Lord referred to, but also the large amphitheatre and stadium. I therefore think that as long as the Bill is in its present shape and does not distinguish between large and small activities, the onus must be on the promoters of the Bill to protect those affected by the large events they may wish to authorise. They cannot shelter from that duty by saying that it is not necessary to produce that protection in regard to the smaller activities which will thereby be facilitated.
That being so, it seems to me that there is a good deal of sense in giving power to the local authority to decide what goes on in the local community. I must remind the noble Lord that it is not a question of scattering the country with a vast list of new licensing authorities. They all exist. The local authorities already exist; they are licensing authorities; they carry out exactly these functions for other purposes. They have a staff equipped and trained to do so, with remarkably little fuss and at no great expense. This would not add to the expense one whit.
I do not doubt that the Minister—I do not need to read over his shoulder to tell the Committee—will in due course say that the amendment is flawed and that the schedule is wrongly drafted. Ministers always say that and I regret to say that they are always right when they do so. But it is not the function of those noble Lords who wish the Bill to proceed in a proper manner to draft it so that it does. It is the Committee's function to bring upon the promoters of the Bill notice that that is a requirement of this Chamber if the Bill is to proceed. That therefore seems to me good ground for regarding with some favour what the noble Lord Lord Graham of Edmonton, has proposed to the Committee.
I say only this. It is, as the noble Lord has said, a Bill about betting as well as about sport. if the two remain wedded, as they now are in the text of the Bill—it is, after all, also a Bill about racing and we know where the motive power for this Bill lies—if it is a Bill about racing and about betting, then it will not be economically worth while having the Bill unless all the betting shops in the high streets are open when racing takes place. As the Bill is drafted they can be open whenever any function takes place at any venue in the country. That is a sweeping commission.
If the decision as to whether racing or another event is to take place is delegated to the local authority in whose area it is proposed to hold it, and if there is later proposed, very sensibly in my view, permission to keep the betting shops open on Sunday only on days when there is racing, then the Committee would, if the Bill is not amended again after this amendment, be delegating to the local authority in Derby or Leicester the decision as to whether the betting shops should be open on Sunday in Norwich, Exeter, Oxford or Cambridge. I think noble Lords might think twice about that if they happen to live in Norwich, Exeter or Cambridge.
Therefore, I support the noble Lord in his amendment, but, first, he will almost certainly need to have it redrafted and, secondly, if it is accepted it will be necessary also to untie it in some way from this great mass of betting shops, which I do not think any of us want to see open on Sunday anyway.
The Earl of Caithness: Perhaps at this stage it would be appropriate for me to say a word or two. The Government's position on racing is that, provided suitable arrangements are made for betting to take place lawfully, we see no reason to stand in the way of horseracing on Sundays. That is the view that we have expressed before and are expressing again. We do not have any plans at present to introduce legislation of our own on this subject, so it will be for the Committee to decide how to handle the amendments before it.
I say to my noble friend Lord Milverton, who is very much one of those who wants to keep Sunday special, that already there are over 5,671,000 people—that is, one fifth of the paid working force in 1986—working on Saturday and Sunday or on Sunday by itself. For them Sunday is a day that is rather like many others. Indeed I suspect my noble friend does one or two duties on Sunday that he does not do during the rest of the week.
Because of the schedule in Amendment No. 19, which is consequential on this amendment, one can see some of the effects that this will have. Indeed my noble friend Lord Elton pointed out that it should be the responsibility of those who organise the events under the amendment to make suitable arrangements if they are held. I take my noble friend back to the Crathorne Committee, which was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Brentford, because this committee made recommendations for change for sport. It sought as part of its balancing act a distinction between sports played for reward, which should continue to be prohibited on Sundays, and those played by amateurs, which were acceptable even if they drew big crowds. So since 1964 we have had amateurs being allowed to play on Sundays drawing large crowds, and for over 23 years some of the things that my noble friend has wanted have already been in existence.
The definition in the Crathorne Committee report seems an increasingly hopeless distinction for the purposes of Sunday observance and sport. Therefore in view of changing attitudes we do not think there is much purpose in looking back and taking too seriously some of the committee's amendments.
We think that the amendment proposed would be additionally restrictive on the operation of sports on Sundays and we see no justification for applying to sports the burdens of licensing arrangements. It would be a huge burden on a wide variety of sports, as set out in the schedule introduced to this amendment.
If this amendment were to be carried on a Division, if that is what the noble Lord, Lord Graham, would like, it will have very serious repercussions on those people whom he seeks to support in other ways, such as the Prison Officers' Association—some of whom find Sunday is their only free day and would like to go to some of the sports, which probably will not be held under the schedule—or indeed the firemen and police, who work some weekends.
Noble Lords: Oh no!
The Earl of Caithness: That is true, and I hope the noble Lord will take it on board.
Lord Elton: Is my noble friend suggesting that the Prison Officers' Association is actually in favour of this Bill?
The Earl of Caithness: No, what I was saying—my noble friend was quick to try to turn my words, but he was wrong—was that the effect of the amendment would have serious repercussions on other sporting events that exist at the moment. People who work on Saturdays and find that Sunday is a free day may wish to go to such a sporting event but they would not be able to in the future.
Lord Manton: Perhaps I may comment briefly on one point made by the noble Lord, Lord Graham, in proposing his amendment. I am speaking now only from a racing point of view, but I suspect that what applies to racing applies to cricket as well. The racing fixture list is compiled about 18 months to two years before the racing takes place. The fixture list is drawn up in about March of one year for the following year. One may be talking in March about an event that is to happen in December of the following year. Local authorities can change. What is acceptable to one local authority 18 months in advance may well not be acceptable 18 months later.
The racecourses will not have many opportunities to race on Sundays anyway, but if a racecourse gets an opportunity to race 18 months later the amendment suggests that one has to go to the local authority for the licence. I do not think that a local authority would be in a position to give authority 18 months in advance. If it were, there could be a local election and the decision might be overturned. A racecourse which had advertised the meeting would find itself in an extremely difficult position. I suspect that that might also happen to a cricket fixture list and to other sporting events.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: Perhaps I may deal with the point fairly made by the previous speaker. We are talking about legislation and powers. If this Chamber and the other place were to take a decision on the matter, there is nothing to say that a subsequent opportunity for a change of mind would not result in a change of legislation. If the noble Lord is saying that one council which approved the fixture list that was presented to it would be in danger two years later if there were a change of control and a change of heart, the answer is, yes. That is what we call democracy. If the second group of people were so minded as to change something, they would be doing it because they believed that it was in the interests of the local people. They could be right or they could be wrong.
I should have said this at the beginning, but I did not and so I do so now. I certainly do not put forward the schedule as complete and perfect. I am well aware of the drafting errors that can be pointed out, but let us stick to the principle. The principle I am asking the Committee to accept is that, in addition to the many other people who are consulted about whether a race meeting, a football match a tennis match or a golf tournament is arranged, the local people should be consulted. I suggest that this be done through their representatives. That is a fair point.

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The noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, tried to tell us that this would open up a can of worms. He said that a multiplicity of boards and committees would be spawned. The noble Lord, Lord Elton, pointed out that if one wants to be dramatic one can use words like that, but if one wants to be practical and if one has good will one can find ways around it.
The Minister told us that the Government see no objection to horseracing and betting on a Sunday if arrangements can be made. I have a letter before me from a Member of Parliament, who says:
"I am very much against horseracing and gambling on Sundays".
It is signed, "Margaret Thatcher". I shall repeat the letter:
"I am very much against horseracing and gambling on Sundays".
The letter was to a constituent. The letter is of some age and she may have changed her mind, but this lady is not for turning. On the other hand, she is apparently able to change her mind. She changed it once and she can change it again. I say to Members of the Committee: besides thinking of your interests in the matter, think of the people who are going to be affected locally.
Baroness Macleod of Borve: Before the noble Lord sits down, can he tell us the date of that letter?
Lord Graham of Edmonton: It is dated 9th June 1970.
Lord Elton: As the noble Lord has manifestly not sat down, perhaps I may ask him to address himself to one narrow point which I think would help the Committee very much.
My noble friend Lord Manton is concerned about the possibility of the revocation of a licence after it has been granted in the 24 months that may elapse between the grant and the event. Does the noble Lord agree that the power of revocation of licences is restricted to paragraph 13 of the schedule and that the grounds for a revocation are all listed there and relate to the mismanagement of the track, public safety or analogous conditions? There is no power to revoke it on a political whim. It is simply a matter of a clear breach of the circumstances when the licence could be held to be valid. It would be helpful if the noble Lord could confirm that.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I am most grateful to the noble Lord. Lord Elton. Paragraph 13, which is headed "Revocation of licence and appeal therefrom", takes up most of the schedule. Care and concern has been taken to make sure that there is fair play if the licensing authority considers for one reason or another that the licence needs to be revoked. I say again to the noble Lord, Lord Manton, that I am certainly in the business of looking at amendments to this schedule at the next stage if the principle of the schedule to allow local people to express their views is accepted by the Committee. I wish to press the amendment.
7.17 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 30, Not-Contents, 35.

DIVISION NO. 1

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Ingleby, V.

Ashbourne, L.

Kissin, L.

Attlee, E.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Brentford, V. [Teller.]

Milverton, L.

Brockway, L.

Murray of Epping Forest, L

Bruce of Donington, L.

Nicol, B.

Caldecote, V.

Robertson of Oakridge, L.

Carter, L.

Seear, B.

Coleraine, L.

Southwark, Bp.

Denning, L.

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Elton, L.

Swinfen, L.

Ewart-Biggs, B.

Turner of Camden, B.

Faithfull, B.

Underhill, L.

Gallacher, L.

Vinson, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]

Ypres, E.

NOT-CONTENTS

Allenby of Megiddo, V.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Allerton, L.

Manton, L. [Teller.]

Balfour, E.

Merrivale, L.

Benson, L.

Monson, L.

Blatch, B.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Craigavon, V.

Newall, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Orkney, E.

Crawshaw, L.

Plummer of St Marylebone, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Reay, L.

Greenway, L.

Roxburghe, D.

Head, V.

Russell of Liverpool, L.

Hemphill, L.

St. John of Fawsley, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Howie of Troon, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Lane-Fox, B.

Leverhulme, V.

Trevethin and Oaksey, L.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Windlesham, L.

McIntosh of Haringey, L.

Wyatt of Weeford, L. [Teller.]

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly
7.26 p.m.
Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 1, line 7, after ("used") insert ("after 2 p.m.)".
The noble Lord said: The purpose of the amendment is to achieve a degree of certainty in the Bill which is a case of all or nothing. There is no time element in the Bill as regards the sporting event. There is no restriction on the playing hours of other sports. The only restriction is in respect of the opening of betting shops. I believe that two o'clock is a much better time to legalise the other events.
We are looking at a series of imperatives that we are trying to protect. It is not merely a question of Sunday morning and of worship by Christians and others; we are trying to protect Sunday morning as such. In later amendments I shall return to my deep desire of trying to provide the maximum protection for those who are forced by circumstance, economic and otherwise, to work on Sunday. Therefore, I am anxious to make the legalisation of the commencement of sporting events on Sunday as late as is practicable. In practice, a two o'clock start on a Sunday is not far from that which is the vogue. Not many events start earlier than that time on a Sunday. The amendment is an attempt to give the Bill a little more meaning while protecting a number of people who have no protection at all under the Bill. I beg to move.
Baroness Macleod of Borve: I should like to draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, to the words at the top of the Bill. He will see that the hour of 12 noon is mentioned. I do not think that this has anything to do with betting offices but rather with the starting of events. I thought that the noble Lord had said that the time was not mentioned.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: With respect, I said that the only reference in the Bill to time was the noon in respect of betting but as regards the commencement of events there is no control. The problem is that the Bill seeks to serve a number of purposes, one of which is to legalise betting on Sundays. We are also trying to be fair to the promoters who tell us that the Bill is about more than betting; it is about the holding of sporting events. In this amendment I am proposing that sporting events are not commenced before 2 p.m. It may not be acceptable and the Committee may take the view that it wants no restriction of any kind at all.
7.30 p.m.
Lord Airedale: I should like to interpose a few words at this point. I have tabled two amendments, one of which, Amendment No. 6, is very much on the lines of the present amendment. My second amendment, Amendment No. 11, simply suggests that the opening hours of the betting offices should be the same as those of the racecourses, and perhaps I may now speak to that amendment also. I should make it clear that I am speaking only about horseracing.
I was very impressed by the Second Reading speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Brentford. I remember that some years ago I heard a very impressive speech from the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Coggan, who was of course speaking from the Bishops' Front Bench. He spoke several times in this Chamber about a matter which was very dear to his heart; namely, the preservation of family life at all costs. That particular debate was on an occasion very similar to this one. We were discussing Sunday afternoon sport. He was not against the idea at all but his message was: "Don't start too early in the afternoon, that's all, because if you do, you will injure that splendid occasion, the family Sunday lunch". The pace of modern life today and the large numbers of people who do shift work and so on mean that Sunday lunch may be the only time in the week when the family come together. Sunday lunch also ensures at least one square meal a week for young members of the family, some of whom may subsist for the rest of the week on junk food taken at uncertain and irregular intervals.
The other day I opened at random a copy of that reliable guide, Sporting Life, and I found that one of the race meetings that day began at 2.30 p.m. I suggest that we declare that Sunday horse racing shall begin at 2.30 p.m. I do not suppose that at the races a bet for the 2.30 race can be placed with a bookmaker before 2 o'clock, so I should have thought that if a 2 o'clock start were right for the racecourse on Sunday then a 2 o'clock opening would be equally right for the betting shop.
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I have heard it suggested that there might be a big race taking place and that there might not be time for all the punters to be accommodated should there be a 2 o'clock opening. I do not follow that argument. I understand that Sunday racing will take place at only one racecourse, so the scene in the betting shop will not be similar to that on a hectic Saturday when there are perhaps five race meetings and races taking place at 10-minute intervals all through the afternoon. I should have thought that the punters could be adequately accommodated on Sunday with a 2 o'clock opening for both the betting shop and the racecourse.
The two amendments that I have tabled refer to British summertime. I have to accept that it might be thought desirable to have a race meeting on a Sunday in the middle of the Christmas holidays, and daylight hours being as they are in mid-winter, it would not be satisfactory for a race meeting to begin at 2.30 p.m. I am afraid that on that particular Sunday of the year the family Sunday lunch might have to suffer, but I daresay that not too much damage would be done.
Viscount Brentford: In supporting this amendment, perhaps I may briefly endorse the remarks of both the noble Lords, Lord Graham and Lord Airedale, with whom I agree. Different groups of people would be affected by sporting activities that go on all day on Sundays. I also endorse everything that has already been said about the family.
Secondly, I think that we should remember the local community. Sunday morning is a time of peace and quiet for many people. I touched on that point earlier when we were discussing the previous amendment. I believe that it is very worthwhile to keep some part of every week free from noise, traffic congestion and everything that accompanies large sports meetings. This amendment will keep Sunday different from every other day of the week. For that reason I endorse the starting time of 2 o'clock. Further, there may be churches close to sporting stadia and it may prove difficult for churchgoers if they cannot park nearby. There are of course many other problems associated with large sports meetings.
For those reasons I believe that the 2 o'clock start is infinitely preferable to having a meeting going on all day.
Lord Murray of Epping Forest: I support the amendment because it seeks to limit the harmful effects of the Bill on employees whose needs, as has already been mentioned by many Members of the Committee, are ignored in the Bill. During our discussion of the Shops Bill, this Chamber made it clear that whatever its merits, it was wrong—and I think that it was the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, who used the phrase—to smuggle into the Bill a worsening of employees' conditions. Whatever the standards used, by requiring people to work on Sundays this Bill is worsening their existing rights and expectations as well as those of their families. Therefore any way in which the Bill can be improved so as to limit the ill effects of this legislation on those employees and their families will, I hope, commend itself to the Committee.
Lord Manton: I should like to comment very briefly in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Airedale. Certainly the intention of the Bill is for racing to take place on three courses—perhaps geographically in the North, South and Midlands—on the Sundays when racing is allowed. That will initially perhaps amount to seven Sundays, so we are talking about 21 race meetings. The noble Lord seemed to think that there would be only one race meeting on a Sunday.
Lord Elton: The noble Lord, Lord Manton, pauses to recollect what he intends to say next. Where does it appear in the Bill that the intention is only to race on a handful of Sundays?
Lord Manton: That is correct.
Lord Elton: But where in the Bill is it stated that that is the intention? We are debating a Bill, which is a draft Act of Parliament, that may allow these things to happen on every day of the year except Good Friday and Christmas Day. Where is the restriction to which the noble Lord refers?
Lord Manton: We shall come to that when we come to my amendment later on.
Lord Elton: Is my noble friend saying that if the Committee agrees to his amendment that will be the effect of the Bill but that as drafted at present the Bill permits racing on every Sunday? I think that that is the point that the noble Lord was addressing.
Lord Airedale: Do we not have to entertain the possibility that Sunday racing will catch on and that there will be a clamour from racecourses all over the country to have their meetings on Sunday'? We cannot tell how popular it will become.
Lord Manton: The Jockey Club very closely monitors and controls the fixture list. The Committee will have to take it at face value perhaps. The Jockey Club has stated that there will not be more than perhaps 12 Sundays on which racing can take place. There is absolutely no intention of allowing racecourses to say, "We want to race on Tuesday," or, "We want to race next Sunday". As I explained earlier, the fixture list is drawn up two years in advance, and is very carefully approved, controlled and fine-tuned. That is the answer.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, has not understood the full implication of his amendment. If it were the case that no sporting event where admission was charged should take place before 2 p.m., it would make utterly impossible such events as one-day cricket at Lord's, because they have to begin well before 2 p.m.; otherwise they do not get a result. Likewise, any sport which requires a great deal of daylight, like motor racing or motorcycle racing, has to begin before 2 o'clock and must be able to do so. On the other hand, if you only begin racing at 2 p.m., in the winter it will be dark before the last race.
So in one way or another, although no doubt the amendment is intended to be helpful, I do not think it would help anybody. Goodness knows what one
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would do with the vast crowd of a quarter of a million at Silverstone and their Sunday lunches, while they were waiting for the performance to begin at 2 p.m. Normally I think that they put on other races for them while they are waiting. I think that the amendment would simply wreck a number of sports that take place already on Sunday, because the intention of it is in some way to regulate existing sports.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: I always hesitate before disagreeing with a fellow member of the MCC, but if I may say so to my noble friend Lord Wyatt, surely Sunday one-day games do not begin before 2 p.m. Am I wrong about that? Maybe I am.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: The noble Lord is quite wrong. I live close to Lord's and I am frequently woken up early on a Sunday by people queuing at 7 a.m. for a start at 10 a.m. or 11 a.m.
Lord Elton: I do not wish to weary the Committee or my noble friend Lord Manton on this question, but he said that the intention would be evident on his Amendment No. 9. Although I see that there is a reference to permission for racing being granted, I see no reference to the number of permissions that may be given. The Bill, even as amended by that amendment—and we are not discussing that amendment—would appear to give a power to race on every Sunday.
We are familiar with undertakings given by governments, when large powers are claimed, not to use them. The persuasive argument on those occasions is, "If you do not use them you may not have them". So I am not persuaded by my noble friend's saying that this is only to happen on seven days a year, because it seems to me that it is not in his gift, or in anybody's gift at the moment, to say how the power may be used, once it is there, in five, ten or fifteen years' time.
I do not wish to detain the Committee longer, but I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Murray, for the reason given by the right reverend Prelate in the Second Reading debate, that we must seek to limit the effects of this Bill because it is wrong to try to change Sunday by fraying the edges. That is what the right reverend Prelate said. If we are to change Sunday, then let us only change the afternoons.
At present, a great many things happen on Sunday. As I understand it, it is not the intention of the noble Lord, Lord Graham, to stop those. He wishes to limit the permissive effect. if that is not the effect of his amendment, it can always be rectified on another occasion if he so wishes. In any case, he may wish to reflect until Report.
The Earl of Caithness: That is the effect, as I understand it, of the noble Lord's amendment. It will affect not only cricket matches, but also British open golf and Wimbledon if they start before 2 o'clock. It precisely affects sports that take place now.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: It is perfectly true that rather than have, as the Bill stands, a sporting event at which money is charged for admission starting at any time of the day, we are trying to limit the time.

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Some people may argue that 2 o'clock is too late. The Crathorne Report suggested 12.30. This Bill is absolutely silent.
Points have been made in the Committee about the manner in which local people may be affected—the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, mentioned this—by people who queue. That may not disturb the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, but it may disturb other people. It may be that 2 o'clock is the wrong time. Certainly one envisages the ability to gain admission earlier, and I wonder whether the noble Lord has heard of arrangements for pre-selling tickets. There is a principle involved in trying to restrict the disturbance on a Sunday to the afternoon, as opposed to having an elastic time.
However, I am not in the business of standing in every ditch and fighting on every issue. There are other issues that need to be debated. I have listened very carefully to what some people have pointed out about the serious difficulties in putting in a time. I am not persuaded that a time need not be put in, though I am satisfied that we have served a purpose on this issue by debating it tonight for 17 minutes. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
7.45 p.m.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford Lord Wyatt of Weeford moved Amendment No. 3:
Leave out Clause 1 and insert the following new clause:
("Sporting events on Sundays.
The entertainments and amusements to which the Sunday Observance Act 1780 applies shall not include any race, athletic sports or other sporting event.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is intended to clarify what the Act is all about, so that people may not be confused into thinking that every place which has a sporting event is a track. It also makes it clear, doubly sure, that anyone involved in promoting, running, organising or taking part in the running of a sporting event for which admission is charged will be free from prosecution under the Sunday Observance Act.
When the Cuerden Park motorcycle scrambling organisation was prosecuted in 1956, the clerk of the course and the chairman of the stewards were each fined £50 and the convictions were confirmed by the Divisional Court. But there were also further convictions for aiding and abetting against the chief marhsall and the starter. So the net being spread so wide, with various humble officials or insignificant cogs in the wheel being prosecuted, we thought it wiser to make it quite clear that nobody involved in the promotion of such an event will be prosecuted. The amendment, also lets out organisations such as the BBC, which regularly televise sporting events for which money is charged on a Sunday, from being under the charge of aiding and abetting. I beg to move.
Lord Elton: If anybody else is going to speak, I think I should just point out that the effect of this amendment would be to make it very difficult for the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, to move his
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Amendment No. 4, and he may not therefore be speaking to it. But if he is going to do so, then I need not say that I do not agree with it.
Baroness Macleod of Borve: May I very briefly say what I said at Second Reading? As a magistrate, I have been very worried for many years that since 1780, when the Act was passed, all the people, not only those promoting but those attending and paying to go to any sporting fixture unless it is for charity, have been infringing the law. I want the law altered so that people are made into law-abiding citizens.
Viscount Caldecote: This amendment clarified the present situation, which is unsatisfactory because a lot of paid sports are taking place which are illegal. I should like to come back to the point which the noble Lord, Lord Elton, made earlier—that we do not want to make Sunday like any other day and have paid sport carried on throughout Sunday. If only we could find some way, perhaps with a different amendment from the one that was defeated earlier, to deal with the subject in that way, I should feel much happier. Perhaps we can come back to this point at Report stage, because this is a very sweeping but tidying-up amendment which does not meet the points that many noble Lords have already made in this debate.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
New Clause 1 agreed to.
Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 4.
After Clause 1, insert the following new clause:
("Fine for contravening s. 1.
In the case of any contravention of the Sunday Observance Act 1780 (as amended by section 1 of this Act) in connection with any race, athletic or sporting event taking place at a track on a Sunday, the occupier of the track shall be liable to a fine not exceeding £50,000.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment hinges upon matters that have already been debated. Therefore, in the light of what has transpired, I certainly do not give any undertaking not to return to the earlier debates and the consequences of not carrying through a licence. To be fair to the Committee one needs to reflect upon the consequences of what has transpired. Therefore, to be helpful, I shall not move the amendment.
[Amendment No. 4 not moved.]
Clause 2 [Removal of restrictions on betting on Sundays]:
Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 1, line 12, leave out from beginning to (";and") in line 14 and insert—
("(a) in section 5(1)(b) for the words "or Sunday" there shall be substituted the words "or any Sunday other than those Sundays (being not more than seven in number in any period of twelve months) designated by the Jockey Club as Sundays on which betting might take place on Sundays on tracks throughout the United Kingdom (excluding Northern Ireland."").
The noble Lord said: This is a simple amendment. I am trying, as always, to limit the effect of a Bill which has very little restriction whatever. As the Bill

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hangs so heavily on racing on a Sunday and betting shops being open on a Sunday I do not want the Bill because it is a unity. However, I acknowledge that there is a desire on the part of certain interests to have racing on a Sunday.
I know that Members of the Jockey Club said on 13th September during their meeting at Sandown that they envisaged that in 1989 racing should take place either on seven Sundays or thereabouts. That does not mean, I understand, seven race meetings. It could very well be 17, 18 or 19 race meetings but held on seven Sundays. In fact it is 21 meetings. It is not so much the 21 spots that may or may not be benefited or affected; it is the seven Sundays that are important. So the purpose of this amendment is to take on board that which has been professed and to decide that if that is what the intention is we must give it effect in legislation. Let us limit it to seven. I beg to move.
Viscount Brentford: I support the amendment. Bearing in mind what my noble friend Lord Manton has said, this amendment puts into the Bill what he says is its intention. It seems to me that we should have in the Bill what is intended. I feel confident that my noble friend will support the amendment. It is an important amendment that will clarify the position. The whole nation will know what is going to happen. Nothing else can go beyond it unless Parliament were so to direct. I therefore feel that the amendment is a right and proper move to incorporate in the Bill.
Lord Manton: I wish to reply to my noble friend Lord Brentford. If he recalls, on Second Reading the current senior steward of the Jockey Club, the noble Lord, Lord Fairhaven, told the House that the intention in year one was to have perhaps three or two but probably one meeting in the North, one in the South and one in the Midlands. I hope that that point is taken. It was to be a special family occasion allied perhaps to a fair or acrobatics— that type of thing. Another point is the early opening or closing of a racecourse. The noble Lord told the House that if that was a success, there could perhaps be an expansion to 12 race meetings. The Committee can read that in Hansard. It is the hope of the Jockey Club that the amendment will not be limited to seven meetings. Perhaps if the amendment were altered slightly there might be more ground for acceding to it.
Viscount Brentford: While my noble friend is still on his feet I wish to ask him whether, if he were to accept this amendment, another amendment could be moved on Report to alter the figure to a slightly higher one if that was thought appropriate on reflection?
Lord Harris of Greenwich: With great respect, I think that this debate is not a particularly serious one. We cannot start having an auction as to whether the number is five, seven or nine. I am not necessarily convinced that picking out racing and taking it up on its own is the right way to do it either. I did not vote for the first amendment, but I at least saw the logic of it. I accept that there are legitimate anxieties on the part of people living near to sites where major
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sporting fixtures may take place. But it is not right to have a discussion on the basis of what somebody said on Second Reading and try to write that into the Bill. That is not a way in which we can possibly create legislation in this country.
Lord Elton: I did seek to tempt my noble friend Lord Manton to locate a limitation on the power in the Bill without success on the last amendment. I hope that he will seize the opportunity which this amendment presents him of limiting the Bill to the extent that is in the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, has settled on seven days. Twelve days would be one a month. This is a limitation exercise. I hope that we shall not have an auction of any kind.
I hope, however, that the Committee will see reason in this limitation because it provides the means to carry out the experiment which some Members of the Committee wish to see carried out. Members may come back to the Chamber if there is an escalation of the wish to race on Sundays in the five or six years it may take for that escalation to take place. In that case they can seek to increase the permission. Given that the stated intention is to have only a modest number, this is a modest number. I hope the Committee will limit the power thereto.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: The amendment seeks to give the Jockey Club rather unusual powers. It would enable the Jockey Club to decide on which other sports grounds betting might take place through the Jockey Club having horseracing on a Sunday. As the Bill stands at the moment it would be quite possible for Ladbrokes to open a tent on Sunday at Lord's for betting and for betting to take place at show jumping and golf tournaments. That is quite customary on a weekday. One cannot tie this to the number of days on which by whim or necessity the Jockey Club decides to have horseracing on a Sunday because other sports where betting is quite customary take place on a Sunday too.
I understand that the reason for a later amendment is to limit the opening of betting shops off the course to days when there is horseracing on a Sunday. We cannot now put in an amendment of this kind to say that the Jockey Club shall decide whether or not there may be betting at Lord's on a particular Sunday. One reason I am rather pleased about this amendment is that it at last concedes the principle that betting is all right on a Sunday on a track. So the principle has gone. The principle has been admitted that it is all right to bet on Sunday on a track. That is a very good starting point for considering why in that case one should not have betting off the track in betting shops and why it should be limited to seven Sundays or to any other particular number.
I agree with the Jockey Club that one would not wish to begin with more than five, six or perhaps 12 Sundays a year but we have had it clearly conceded by the opponents of the Bill that the principle has gone. They no longer object to betting on Sundays on tracks. I am delighted to hear of their conversion.
Lord Elton: I ask the noble Lord to look at the Marshalled List between Amendments Nos. 11 and

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12 and he will see that there is a better alternative available which does not permit betting shops to open on Sunday and which I shall warmly advance. However, it is unwise to count on success. Therefore, it is right to have an alternative open. I dare say that the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, may feel it would be prudent to await the issue of the debate on Clause 2 stand part and return to the less attractive alternative—perhaps deposing the Jockey Club in the process—between now and Report. That is the seven day limitation contained in Amendment No. 5. I should be happy to do that and to speak rather more forcefully on the Motion whether Clause 2 shall stand part of the Bill.
8 p.m.
Lord Airedale: I think it follows from most of the speeches which we have had from the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, that the Committee would be a good deal happier if it had two Bills, one dealing with horseracing and possibly greyhound racing and betting shops and a separate Bill dealing with other sports on Sundays with which betting and betting shops are not normally associated.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: The noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, has done the Committee a service by indicating that once opponents of the Bill concede an inch, they provide the ground for the next step. The noble Lord says that if, in this amendment, we envisage on-course betting on those Sundays then ipso facto we must also concede the case for off-course betting on those Sundays. Nothing of the sort is true. There is a distinct argument.
I take the point which has been made by the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, that the issue has been deliberately confused by certain interests. I mean no disrespect to those interests. They are responsible for running the horseracing industry. However, they have brought before the Committee a Bill which I believe is an attempt to gain popularity by ostensibly legalising the redundancy of an Act which is more than 200 years old.
The noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, tempts me to make more of what he has said. I take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Elton. However, the fact that we are attempting to improve the Bill as we go along does not mean that we concede for a moment that we may succeed in amending a clause and then eventually decide to get rid of the whole clause. If we wait for the chance to get rid of the whole clause, we may well lose the opportunity to make our argument to improve it.
The noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, is far more experienced in the tactics of the other place than I. In our position, we are attempting to obtain a concession. The noble Lord says that, far from that, when we appear to be conciliatory, we are the ones who concede the point.
Without any prejudice to future action, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 6 not moved.]
Lord Wyatt of Weeford Lord Wyatt of Weeford moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 1, line 12, leave out from ("words") to ("or") in line 13 and insert (" "Christmas Day or Sunday" there shall be substituted the words "any Christmas Day".").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is designed simply to make Section 5(1)(b) of the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963 read more simply. I believe that the Home Office prefers this wording. Section 5(1)(b) will then read:
"Betting by way of bookmaking or by means of a totalisator shall not take place on any track … on any Good Friday, any Christmas Day or Sunday before the hour of twelve noon".
It is as simple as that.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Viscount Brentford Viscount Brentford moved Amendment No. 8:
Page 1, line 14, leave out from ("noon") to end of line 18.
The noble Viscount said: In moving this amendment, I should like to make it clear to the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, in case he is in any doubt, that I am not now a supporter of off-course betting on Sundays, The object of the amendment is to preclude off-course betting on Sundays.
There are a number of points which I should like to make concerning this matter. First, I turn to the question of Ireland. As was said in the Second Reading debate, Ireland has racing on Sundays without having betting shops open. That works very well. I should add that illegal betting is not perceived to be a problem there.
In Ireland, the runners are named on Friday, punters bet on Saturday and horses race on Sunday. That is a neat mechanism which alleviates all problems. That system has been functioning for the past two years and there have been no great problems.
I can see no reason why such a system should not work here. My noble friend the Minister, in the Second Reading debate, referred to a poll. However, the question of their views on betting when names of runners are declared on Friday was not put to the people participating in the poll. Therefore, the argument that many people would bet illegally on Sunday does not, in my view, hold good.
I now turn to consider the matter of illegal betting, which one racing correspondent has described as a red herring. There is and no doubt there always has been illegal betting. However, nobody has convinced me that it will necessarily accelerate enormously. As my noble friend the Minister has said, there may be some five million people already working. However, most of the workplaces which are one of the main sources of illegal betting are probably not those that function anyway. I suggest that for that reason illegal betting will not be a great problem if betting shops are closed on Sunday.
When I spoke on evening betting in the Second Reading debate, the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, produced an argument which I should like to repeat to him because I believe that that argument strengthens my case rather than his. He may not entirely agree with me. When I put forward the argument that evening racing did not produce much illegal betting, he pointed out that 7 per cent. of a day's betting takes on evening racing. If the percentage is so small, surely the same will be true of

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Sunday racing when the runners are declared on a Friday. Betting can then take place on a Saturday and there will be no need for betting shops to be open on Sunday.
In this amendment, we are not dealing with the question of on-course betting. People who attend a racecourse will be able to bet at the noble Lord's Tote or on course, as they wish. The amendment simply precludes betting shops being open.
I plead again, as I have so often, for consideration of the impact of deregistration on the communities involved. In this case, I am concerned for those who live in the high street areas. So far as this amendment is concerned, I believe that if betting shops are open on Sundays, there will be much hardship suffered by people who live in such areas. There are some 35,000 to 40,000 betting-shop workers. Many of them work long hours. I plead for them to be allowed to spend Sunday with their families. They need a day off regularly, week by week, and they need to know exactly where they stand. I beg to move.
Lord Airedale: I think it is pertinent to this amendment to remind the Committee of something said by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, on the Second Reading of this Bill. He said that if the Bill goes through as drafted the high street is going to be rather a strange place on a Sunday afternoon. The only shops open will be the betting shops and if you want to buy a loaf of bread at the supermarket next door you will not be allowed to.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: If I might deal with the point which the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, has just raised, there are 150,000 establishments licensed to sell drink on a Sunday, and they do so. They would be very much missed if they did not. There are only 10,000 betting shops altogether in the country and obviously they would not all be open on a Sunday because many of them are in areas like city centres where there would be nobody to come to bet. I do not think therefore that the danger is very great.
If I might deal with what the noble Viscount, Lord Brentford, said. Ireland is a strange place and I do not think we should be drawing our habits from Ireland.
I should like to deal with the question of why there is no illegal betting when there is evening racing and the betting shops close at 6.30 p.m. It is perfectly true that I said that the amount of the betting taken at evening meetings would be about 6 or 7 per cent. of the whole of the day's takings considering the afternoon meetings as well.
One of the reasons for that is the afternoon meetings will already have been an attractive series of meetings for the punter. He may have been betting quite a lot in the afternoon and by the time 6 o'clock or 6.30 is reached he is not particularly attracted to betting. At that hour he is not allowed to stay in the shop to hear the commentary or the result. He would be unable to watch the SIS live picture or anything of that kind. It is quite obvious why there is not the weight of betting on the evening meetings—there has been quite enough available for the punter in the afternoon.
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This does not apply to a Sunday meeting, because there would not have been any other race meetings taking place. The Jockey Club has already said it would like to see the Grand National and the Two Thousand Guineas run on a Sunday.
Clearly those are attractive races. Racing on a Sunday afternoon is going to be very interesting to the general punter. You do not get illegal betting necessarily—although I am not sure about that—as a result of evening racing, but you would certainly get illegal betting as a result of Sunday racing if the betting shops were not open. It is very difficult to decide how much illegal betting there is. I heard a figure put today by people who are very knowledgeable in the betting industry that it runs at 15 to 20 per cent. of the amount actually bet.
There is one very interesting illustration of what has happened on course since the 4 per cent. tax on course has been removed. Your Lordships may have seen last Saturday if you were watching racing that the bookmakers were very jubilant as to the amount their turnover had increased since the tax was removed. It was not merely the factor of people not wishing to pay the 4 per cent. tax; it was because previously they were not paying any tax at all. So a great number of illegal bookmakers on course were collecting their wages and the honourable bookmaker who charges tax was losing out.
The reverse therefore would also be the case. You can see at once that if you have any racing at all in England on a Sunday there is bound to be betting on it whether you like it or not. There is going to be racing anyway of a quite legitimate nature at credit offices, where it is perfectly legal. This is the case on foreign courses on Sundays as well.
We are not strangers to betting on Sundays. For some eccentric reason casinos are open on a Sunday; bingo halls are open. There are the one-arm bandits and the other robbers of the poor fully available on piers and other places of amusement. I cannot understand where is the moral distinction in the minds of the Members of this Committee who oppose the proposal to allow betting shops to be open on Sunday when there is horseracing on a Sunday. Where is the moral distinction between a decent, ordinary working man who goes into a betting shop and puts a couple of quid on a horse and a man who sits at home and does it on the telephone? It may cost him more because there may be a minimum bet of £5, as there is with most bookmakers. What is the moral distinction? There is none.
It is an anti-working class device. The person who has the credit account is more likely to be thought creditworthy because he can give bank references and the bookmakers are willing to take the strain of a modest credit account. The ordinary working man is to be penalised and nannied and told, "You are not fit to be allowed to bet on a Sunday because you are so much inferior to these worthy middle-class people with their telephones and credit accounts". They are at home watching television; they have probably three sets in the house and they do not bother anyone else in the family while watching the racing on Sunday. The poor chap who has only one television in his house would have to annoy his wife; but in any

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case he is still not allowed to bet because he does not have a telephone or he does not have a credit account.
It is about time that we stopped having this class distinction in betting. Everybody should be treated exactly the same. For those reasons I oppose this amendment.
8.15 p.m.
Lord Elton: The sweeping assumption made by the noble Lord that he has the whole of the working classes on his side is a piece of arrogance which takes the breath away. Will he please accept that there is a depth of genuine objection to high street betting, off-course betting, on Sundays which transcends visibly the party divisions in this House and evidently the social divisions outside it.
It is not the only, but it is by far the principal reason why a number of noble Lords object to what he now proposes. It would be welcome to see even a glimmer of recognition of this or a concession. I regret that we see none.
There was an oddity about what my noble friend described as the situation in Ireland. It did not altogether surprise me and it would not incommode my form of betting at all in my experience of a lifetime. In Ireland they declare the horses on Friday, they bet on them on Saturday, they run on Sunday and there is no mention of a payout. That is my experience of racing. I would not have thought of it as a commercial proposition.
I think that with the Bill as it is the noble Lord has suggested a sensible way out; that is, by moving a separation between the issues of the joyful and moral activity of racing, on the one hand, and another activity which for some people is dangerous and which for other people seems to me is out of tune with the day.
A noble Lord referred to a passage in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, but he should have continued. The noble Lord went on to say that if you open the betting shops in the high street on Sunday and if you proceed with this Bill as it is now drafted, then there is no doubt that the Sunday Trading Bill will have the door opened to it. Your Lordships will be taking a much more momentous decision on this Bill than has so far been represented. I hope at the very least that you accept this amendment.
Viscount Caldecote: I support this amendment. I wholly support the remarks of the noble Viscount, Lord Brentford, and those of the noble Lord, Lord Elton. The fact is that this illegal betting issue is a red herring, as indeed were a number of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, just now. Life is becoming more and more stressful these days. More and more people are suffering from that and more and more people are having a shorter working week and are now able to do those things which previously they could do only at weekends.
To introduce legislation to open betting shops on Sundays is to add one more item of stress to life. For that reason I oppose it and I very strongly support this amendment.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: Perhaps I may just say a few words. I speak personally and not on behalf of my noble friends, as I have been asked to make clear. The noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, has not proved to me that it is necessary to bring in this very controversial clause. I should have thought that a limitation to on-course betting would be sufficient for most racegoers and the Foundation for Sunday Racing. He has put to one side the example of Ireland in a way which does not persuade me at all. I believe it is fairer to say that the Irish have racing on a Sunday because they are true believers and lovers of the sport and therefore they have not thought it necessary to have off-course betting.
The evidence shows there has been no significant evidence of any illegal betting, and I should have thought that, if there was a place where there might be illegal betting that place could easily be Ireland. My understanding is that there have been very few prosecutions. Therefore, I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, has given an acceptable reason for instituting off-course betting on a Sunday.
Lord Robertson of Oakridge: I support this amendment because of its effect on family life. Every working day I pass a betting shop which has a notice on the outside to that effect that no one under 18 years of age is allowed on the premises. Therefore, the husband will be in the betting shop, while the wife will be left behind, probably because she may not want to go to the betting shop. The children are barred from it, quite rightly in my view. As a result, the family is split. This happens on Saturdays and I believe we should not allow it to happen on Sunday afternoons.
Lord Murray of Epping Forest: The noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, has painted a touching picture of the working man in a cloth cap popping along to his betting shop on a Sunday afternoon to put on a couple of quid. That is no doubt extending his range of choice and enlarging his freedom, and those are very fine matters in themselves as well as contributing to the proceeds of the betting shop owners for seven days a week instead of only six.
However, at whose expense is this freedom to be enlarged? At whose expense is this choice to be widened? It is the expense of 35,000 or 40,000 people who because of the level of wages already have to work for at least five, and in many cases six, days in betting shops and who have to work every Bank Holiday. Surely those people are entitled to some consideration, not only for their own sake, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Elton, said, because, whatever the morality of the situation, it contains much irony. May I point out that, if we are talking about morality, betting debts cannot be sued for in a court of law, so there is surely a distinction between betting and other kinds of activity?
Sunday opening will be a precedent for many other shops, too, but the point is that there will be an effect on the people working in the betting shops. They will be subject to arm twisting because once one betting shop can open then others will open, taking bets on Irish racing or American racing—you name it, it will be enlarged. Therefore, I believe that the debate has been of extraordinary value in making clear that,

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whatever the Jockey Club can do about racecourses, this would give carte blanche for betting shops to open 52 Sundays in the year; and they would.
Baroness Macleod of Borve: Does the noble Lord agree that, according to my information, at least two-thirds of all the people who work in betting shops are part-timers?
Lord Murray of Epping Forest: Even if that were true it would leave 14,000 people who would be under great compulsion and great strain. They would have no redress at industrial tribunals unless we adopted certain other amendments, and would have no defence whatever.
The Earl of Caithness: I believe it would be wise for me to say a word at this moment. I go back to what I said at the beginning. One of the keys to this Bill, so far as the Government are concerned, is that suitable arrangements are made for betting to take place lawfully.
My noble friend Lord Brentford rested much of his argument on the validity of the declaration on Friday. Experience does not prove him right. Experience of the betting industry is that most punters want to place their bets on the day that the race is to take place, when such things as the running conditions are known and overnight declarations have been finalised. The poll to which my noble friend referred seemed to bear this out, because that poll, taken by the Jockey Club, showed that some 36 per cent. of regular punters would find unlawful means of placing a bet on Sundays if the betting shops were not allowed to open. That cannot be compared with evening racing because evening racing is not televised.
Let us take as an example the Grand National taking place on a Sunday and being televised. The betting on the Grand National last year totalled about ?30 million, most of which was placed on the day of the race. Does my noble friend really think that people are not going to bet illegally if the Grand National is held on a Sunday?
Lord Graham of Edmonton: The noble Earl should appreciate that even if the Grand National were run at midnight on a Tuesday there would be £30 million wagered on it. Everybody would want to see it. The Grand National is one of those events, like the Derby and many other races, that causes enormous interest whenever it takes place. That is a fact.
The main point that I wish to deal with is the attempt to assert that whether betting shops open on a Sunday has nothing whatever to do with the arguments about Sunday trading. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, in his Second Reading speech, said that this Bill had nothing to do with Sundays and the Shops Bill. He is entitled to his view. I can tell the Committee that when the Horserace Betting Levy Board issued its 25th Report it said:
"We recognise that the defeat of the Government's Shops Bill is likely further to delay the introduction of Sunday racing and betting".
If they felt the Bill had nothing to do with it, why draw attention to it? Of course, if the Sunday trading Bill had been passed last year, judging from the
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tactics which the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, has deployed tonight, he would have said, "The breach has been established. You cannot really argue against Sunday racing". Equally, if Sunday racing in this form comes through the argument on Sunday trading next year or the year after will be, "You cannot really argue because we have already started Sunday racing". They hang together as part of a movement which is designed to liberalise and to allow no compromise at all. I am one of those people who are willing to liberalise but I will try to make sure that the interests of people affected are looked after.
On Edmonton Green this morning Dirty Den from "Eastenders" opened a new betting shop for Mecca. I am certain that that shop will be very well patronised. I have no doubt at all that the event was a huge success. That shop is in the middle of high-rise developments where 2,000 people live. The shop is right outside their door; and I do not mean just one door but the doors of the flats in which 500 people live. They are thankful when Sunday comes. It is a day of rest, with all that that implies.
The noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, was frank enough to admit on Second Reading that he could not guaranteee that betting shops would be closed on those Sundays when the racing that the Jockey Club had authorised was not taking place. He admitted that they would be open for many more than the racing days. That is a theme which is running through this debate. There are some people who see this Bill in romantic, bright—
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: If I may intervene, since I said that, an amendment has been proposed that the number of days on which betting shops may be open off the course shall be limited to the number of days on which horseracing takes place. I am happy to accept that amendment. There is no danger of betting shops off the course being open on days when no horseracing take place.
8.30 p.m.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: We have yet to come to that amendment and I await with interest the view of the Committee. If the noble Lord is saying that if all those interests who have already expressed their views have big investments in betting shops they will be satisfied only to open them on seven days, we may certainly get into the illegal argument, not merely concerning the punter but concerning the people who own the shops. I say simply that in a place like Edmonton, where the betting shop is open and where there is the opportunity for other shopkeepers to seize upon the traffic that is coming through in the vicinity, it is only human nature to say, "If the betting shop is open legally I am going to chance my arm because the law is going to be changed and I will open my shop"—whatever it may be.
Before one can turn round, to the people who live in that place Sunday is the same as any other day. I think quite frankly that we have an opportunity to take head-on the argument of those who ask, "Why can you not have racing and betting on racing on Sunday?" So far the Committee is saying "So be it", because that will take place on the track.

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However, I argue with the Committee and I plead with those who are in favour of the generality of the Bill: think about other people who will be living in the dirt, the disturbance and the distress, with all the social consequences following the break-up of a family Sunday. This is when you can do it. It is no use crying afterwards or leaving it to the other place. We can do it here tonight with this amendment.
Viscount Caldecote: Before the Minister speaks again, can he clarify a point? As I understand it, the point the noble Lord is making is that we must have betting shops open on Sundays if there is racing because if we do not there will be illegal betting. I understand that is because you must bet through an authorised place of betting in order to collect taxes.
If the argument is that we must have betting shops open to do something on Sundays which we think would be unfortunate, for the reasons which have been very well advanced already, surely that is a very poor argument. If necessary, the law that makes illegal betting other than through a betting shop on Sunday should be changed.
The Earl of Caithness: I am surprised to hear my noble friend advocating illegal betting. The noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, did not actually answer my point. He freely admitted that a race like the Grand National was bound to stimulate interest. He then said that the new betting shop at Edmonton would be well patronised. If you have the Grand National on a Sunday with the amount of betting that takes place on it on the day, rather than on the Friday or the Saturday before, and the people of Edmonton who are the regular betters who use that shop on a weekday find that on the Sunday of the Grand National they cannot put their bet on, does the noble Lord accept that they will find other means to put that bet on, which would be illegal?
Lord Graham of Edmonton: We have already had the profession by the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, that 20 per cent. of the betting in this country is illegal already, under the present laws. No one can produce any reliable statistics as to the extent to which there would be an increase in illegal betting. Customs and Excise cannot give a figure because they have no experience since 1963, since the change in the law. There could be an increase. But where does illegal betting take place? At work? We are not arguing about industry being open, so that opportunity for illegal betting will be gone. Where else? In the pub? It already exists in many pubs: you cannot stop that. We know that is the main source of betting on a Sunday in France. Where else? In homes? That is human nature and that is going on now.
If we are asked to accept a possible potential increase in illegal betting or a restriction on the kind of Sunday that people need in order to rest and to be revived and resuscitated for the rest of the week, then I am prepared to say not that I want to encourage illegal betting—putting words in the mouth of the noble Lord behind the Minister—but that if it takes place it has to be proved. Even if it did happen, I would tolerate that rather than damage the environment of millions of families.
Lord Monson: Before the noble Lord, Lord Graham, sits down, he used the emotive words "dirt" and "distress" in talking about present betting shops. I frequently have occasion to park near betting shops. I have never heard any noise emanating from them. I have rarely seen much dirt and certainly very little distress. I wonder if he would care to elucidate a little more what he means.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I certainly did not mean to refer to the inside of betting shops, because most of them, after certain changes were made, have been vastly improved. I am talking about the ambience in which the betting shop is situated in the high street, in the community. We are talking about the normal dirt and distress which is caused by traffic—not just by motor cars but by people. I can envisage in my mind parts of Enfield, Enfield Town and Edmonton Green, and I can see the way in which certain councils will be called upon to spend more money to clean up the streets. There will be more police and buses and all the rest of it. It is an aggregation of additional aggravation, and in my view we can do without it.
Viscount Head: The working party that was set up by the Jockey Club in 1985 to investigate the effects of Sunday racing disovered in a referendum that 36 per cent. of the people who bet more than once a month would take to back-street betting if the betting shops were not opened. That is undoubtedly what would happen. The back-street bookmakers would be patronised if there was no outlet for legal betting. It is really like putting an iced cake in front of a child and saying, "You may look at it but you may not eat it" to have racing without betting shops being open.
Lord Elton: Let us not entirely lose sight of the major issues. It is no doubt the case that there will be illegal betting on Sundays if there is racing on Sundays. I do not doubt that there is illegal betting on Sundays now. It is admitted that 20 per cent. of betting is illegal anyway. The principle is breached. It is wrong to rest opposition to the amendment on that principle, because that principle is breached.
The major issue is: do we or do we not want betting shops open in the high street up and down the country on Sundays, and manned by people—some of them part-time, it is true, and others full-time—whose Sundays are spoiled and whose families are threatened? It is an occupation which in any case threatens other families simply because of those who are addicted to it. I do not think noble Lords want that. Nor do I think that noble Lords should lightly take a step which makes more probable the success of an attempt to have a Sunday trading Bill passed in this Chamber. I think this is a momentous matter and I hope the Committee will divide on it.
Lord Plummer of St. Marylebone: I find great unreality in these arguments, because my experience of going round London on Sundays is that the shopping centres are thronged with people going to the shops and buying goods in large quantities. Do they create dirt, confusion and so on? What difference will it make if there is a betting shop open?

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As regards the question of whether or not there will be any more illegal betting on a Sunday than on a weekday, it stands to reason that if betting shops are open on weekdays there is much more availability for people to go and bet; but if on a Sunday no betting shops are open obviously this must inevitably increase the amount of illegal betting.
Viscount Brentford: I am grateful to all those who have supported this amendment. I make the point to the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, that I have no Irish blood in me and therefore I shall not take any personal umbrage at his conversation about brushing aside the Irish experiment. I feel upset, however, that he has not paid more attention to it. I believe that what has been happening in Ireland is a fact. What the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, has said about what will happen here is hypothesis. What has happened in Ireland is fact. They do not have problems in Ireland.
I believe that there are many affinities between the Irish and different parts of the United Kingdom. I reiterate that the hole that has been quoted so much did not pose the question of what would happen if the runners were declared on Friday so that bets could be placed on a Saturday. Therefore, we do not know how people would bet.
I believe that there are many law-abiding people who, given the opportunity to bet on Saturday and not on Sunday would do so. There are many people who would like to stay in bed on Sunday and not have the feeling that they must get up, and let peace and quiet reign.
There is a letter in the Daily Telegraph from someone in the betting industry, which states;
"I do believe that most betting shops staff have no desire whatsoever to work on a Sunday".
For the sake of those betting shop staff, the communities in which the betting shops are and families, I hope that the Committee will accept the amendment.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Aberdare): I apologise to the noble Viscount. I had not realised that he moved the amendment.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 8) shall be agreed to?
The Chairman of Committees: I think that the Contents have it. The Contents have it. I call Amendment No. 9.
Noble Lords: Not Content.
The Chairman of Committees: I did not hear it.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: I said, "Not content". I heard about five people around me saying, "Not content".
The Chairman of Committees: I shall put the Question again.
On Question, whether the said amendment (No. 8) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 24; Not-Contents, 21.

DIVISION NO. 2

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Gallacher, L.

Ashbourne, L.

Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]

Attlee, E.

Brentford, V. [Teller.]

Gregson, L.

Brockway, L.

Ingleby, V.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Murray of Epping Forest, L.

Caldecote, V.

Nicol, B.

Carter, L.

Robertson of Oakridge, L.

Craigavon, V.

St. John of Bletso, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Seear, B.

Elton, L.

Turner of Camden, B.

Ewart-Biggs, B.

Underhill, L.

Faithfull, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ailesbury, M.

Howie of Troon, L.

Allenby of Megiddo, V.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Balfour, E.

Manton, L. [Teller.]

Barber, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Benson, L.

Monson, L.

Bethell, L.

Plummer of St Marylebone, L.

Greenway, L.

Reay, L.

Grimthorpe, L.

Roxburghe, D.

Head, V.

Trevethin and Oaksey, L.

Hemphill, L.

Wyatt of Weeford, L. [Teller.]

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
8.50 p.m.
Lord Manton Lord Manton had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 9:
Page 1, line 15, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—
("(b) for paragraph 1 of Schedule 4 there shall be substituted—
"1. The licensed premises shall be closed—

(a) throughout Good Friday, Christmas Day and every Sunday on which racing on an approved horse racecourse does not take place;

(b) before the hour of twelve noon on every Sunday on which racing on an approved horse racecourse does take place; and

(c) at such other times, if any, as may be prescribed,

and shall not be used for any purpose other than effecting of betting transactions."").
The noble Lord said: I am speaking also to consequential Amendment No. 25 to the Long Title.
The effect of the two amendments would be to restrict the opening of betting shops to those Sundays on which there is racing on an approved racecourse. An approved racecourse is one that has been approved under the Horserace Tote and Betting Levy Act 1972. The amendments do not seek to change the general purpose of this admirable Bill, to which I gave my full support on Second Reading. I remain totally in favour of legalising admission charges to all sporting events on Sundays and legalising on- and off-course betting on Sundays to enable racing to take place.
I listened to the arguments put forward by other noble Lords on Second Reading and I follow closely the views of the interested parties in the racing and betting industries. Although a large majority of noble Lords on Second Reading fully supported the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, a few voiced their concern about off-course betting. Among them the noble Lords, Lord Graham of Edmonton and Lord Newall, chairman of the Greyhound Racing Board,

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feared that even if the number of Sundays on which horseracing takes place were to be limited, if betting shops were allowed to open they would undoubtedly open every Sunday. By limiting the opening of betting shops to those Sundays on which horseracing takes place, the amendment seeks to meet those concerns.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I wish to be helpful. Can we receive guidance on the stature of the amendment in the light of what has just taken place?
Lord Elton: Are we not seeking to amend a part of the Bill that does not exist? As I understand it, Amendment No. 8 has removed everything in the Bill from "noon" on line 14 to the end of line 18. As Amendment No. 9 strikes at line 15, it strikes at something that no longer exists.
I take this opportunity to say how grateful I am to my noble friend for his courteous move in the right direction, although it goes not far enough.
The Chairman of Committees: Amendment No. 8 leaves out from "noon" to the end of line 18. Therefore, Amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 11 are preempted. I think that that is correct.
[Amendment No. 9 not moved.]
[Amendments Nos. 10 and 11 not moved.]
On Question, Whether Clause 2, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Elton: There is an understandable pause, because the Clause 2 that we are asked to leave in the Bill is a great deal better than the Clause 2 that was in the Bill when we tabled the amendment. I do not know exactly what my noble friends and other noble Lords who have put their names to the Motion feel, nor have we had a chance to discuss it. I should welcome guidance from the usual source. Although there is no clause stand part procedure—I am not sure whether the usual source is following my question—I should like guidance on whether it is possible to amend the Bill to strike out a clause if so desired. If so, we could leave the decision this evening and speed things up very much.
The Chairman of Committees: I believe I am right in saying that there is no reason procedurally for not moving that a clause be removed on Report. It is undesirable to put down a Motion that a clause be not accepted in order to have a general debate on it. If the clause itself is objectionable, there is no reason why such a Motion should not be moved on Report.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: In order to consider the significance and extent of the vote, I think that we should have time to reflect. I fully understand that means that all sorts of things can happen, not least to supporters and the support at another stage. To be fair to all the interested parties—not least the genuine attempt by the noble Lord, Lord Manton, to seek to overcome the difficulties that he foresaw may arise—we need a period of time. My noble friends and I would be willing not to proceed with the Motion that Clause 2, as amended, shall not stand part of the Bill.
Lord Elton: In those circumstances I would not wish to move the Motion. We can take a proper view later.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 12:
After Clause 2 insert the following new clause:
("Withdrawal of agreement to work.
. Any agreement by an employee employed in connection with a licensed betting office or a track to do work on a Sunday may be withdrawn by the said employee after one month's notice.")
The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 12, 13, 14 and 15 substantially all relate to the prime interests of those who could be classified as workers, those who work in the industry. In the interests of making progress and to focus on what I believe is most important, without making any future commitment I shall not move Amendments Nos. 12, 13 and 14.
[Amendment No. 12 not moved.]
[Amendments Nos. 13 and 14 not moved.]
9 p.m.
Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton moved Amendment No. 15:
After Clause 2, insert the following new clause:
("Rights of established employees concerning Sunday working.
All established employees employed in connection with a licensed betting office or a track, shall have the rights set out in Schedule (Rights of Established employees concerning Sunday working) below."
The noble Lord said: The Bill is silent on the protection and interests of those who work in the industry. This is no accident. I cannot believe that those who have drafted the Bill have not considered those interests. I accept what I have read in the press, that the promoters of the Bill have very much at heart the interests of those who work in the industry and are satisfied that there are ways in which they can be protected. If the Bill is enacted, we wish to have established legitimate ways to which employees who do not want to work on Sunday for a variety of reasons can refer.
Members of the Committee may have had a sense of déjàvu when they read the terms of the amendment and the schedule. This is substantially the amendment moved on behalf of the Government on 11th February by the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, to protect the existing rights of workers. I know that the noble Earl will be consistent in supporting his noble friend and that the Government will recognise that there must be equity. As the Government were prepared without opposition to add a schedule to the Shops Bill, they must accept this. It is in essence the same amendment relating to those who work in this industry.
I shall not weary the Committee by spelling out the concerns that have been expressed to me in writing. These have come from the Stable Lads Association and from the Transport and General Workers' Union. They tell me that the union is totally opposed to the Jockey Club proposals, although it recognises that different segments of the industry have different views. For example, it represents shop employees, who are totally opposed to the opening of betting shops. It represents also stable staff and transport

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drivers. They all have reservations in varying degrees about having to work on Sunday. I use the term advisedly. People can say that they are volunteers, that they do not have to work, that people are queuing up to do this. If the Committee has listened to what is said, Members would be as alarmed as I am.
I do not have a secret source of information. I have before me an article from The Times of Friday 9th October in which a gentleman called Simon Barnes—who no doubt is well known to those in the Chamber closer to the scene than I am—regales the views of those who work in the industry. The article says:
"Both the Trainers Federation and the Stable Lads Association are keen to crack down on such 'cowboy trainers' but lads, fearful of getting blacklisted as troublemakers, will not put their names to such statements. Most of the lads I spoke to were anxious to remain anonymous. They were prepared to give a straight answer to a straight question, without whinging, but very few wanted to test the fragile trust between trainer and staff".
I do not wish to be offensive. There are those who are trainers, stewards or owners. They have their way of going about things. I am prepared to accept that there is some reticence on the part of those whose livelihood is affected to speak out too often.
A gentleman called Bill Adams is the national secretary of the Stable Lads Association. What stable lads are saying appears in that part of the article which states:
"Not a lad I spoke to in Newmarket, probably not a lad I spoke to in the country, wants Sunday racing. Sundays are seen as the last frontier; not something to be crossed for a couple of quid".
I accept that arrangements can be made. Money talks. Those who are on an average wage of less than £100 a week for whatever they do—and it can include six mornings, six afternoons and six nights in some weeks—are being invited to work on Sundays because of the desire of some groups. We are saying that if Sunday racing takes place we ought to have written into statute a means whereby they can seek redress.
I do not wish to weary Members of the Committee. The lineage, the parentage, of the schedule is impeccable. It comes from a first-class stable. It comes from the Government's own parliamentary draftsman who felt that the schedule was needed to protect shopworkers. I say that we also need to protect those who work in industry. I beg to move.
Lord Murray of Epping Forest: This Chamber has agreed that race tracks should open for a limited number of Sundays. But surely the least that we can do as a corollary of that is to ensure that the basic rights of existing employees—of established, not new, employees—are protected. These are rights they have always had and have a proper expectation of maintaining. I have no doubt that some employees support the Bill. I have no doubt that there are other employees who do not like the Bill but who will settle for extra pay on Sundays or extra time off.
However, we are concerned with those who want to preserve their existing way of life, who hold Sunday as a day of worship, or who simply want to go out with the family. There may be only one man or woman in this situation. Are we to say to that person, "You may be a long-serving employee but if
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you do not come in on Sunday you can collect your cards or you can forget about promotion". This amendment would give that person some protection. At the very least it would give him the right to go to an industrial tribunal and object to unfair dismissal.
Unless we adopt this amendment the Bill will materially, indeed fundamentally, change conditions of work which these people have always had and thought that they were always going to have. It was reasonable for them to think that. The change proposed in the Bill cannot be right.
Baroness Seear: I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Graham, one question. I entirely agree with what he says in this amendment about the rights of established workers. I am not clear why he limits it to already established workers. These are surely safeguards that should be available not only for people who are now in the industry but for those who will be entering the industry. Will the noble Lord please explain why he has limited the amendment only to those people who are already there?
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I do so with some diffidence. In the Shops Bill we moved amendments designed to apply to all workers. In seeking to resist that, the Government conceded that there could be a case for those who were already working in the industry. We were not greedy. We did not try to provide a basis of protection for everyone. We said, "Let us see whether we can get the Chamber to accept that those who presently enjoy whatever they do enjoy shall not have that disturbed". When new people enter the industry they may then be prepared to accept the kind of terms or conditions which they freely enter into.
I deeply respect the noble Baroness, who is experienced in labour and employment matters. She recognises that the horseracing industry is very poorly unionised. It does not have a lot of muscle or clout in its representation. We are seeking to provide legal protection for those who have at present told us that they will be detrimentally affected. If it were felt that something else needs to be added either during the passage of this Bill or in another place that could be done. It is a modest attempt to provide the minimum of sensible protection.
The Duke of Devonshire: I rise with diffidence to support this amendment, partly because I have great sympathy with what was said on behalf of the stable lads employers. I must make it clear that I speak alone. I have the privilege of being a member of the Jockey Club and I have the good fortune to be the owner of racehorses. It is as an owner of racehorses that I support this amendment.
The inevitable result of Sunday racing will be an increase in training fees, because those who have to work on Sundays quite rightly will demand more for their labours on Sundays. That is only right and as it should be. But this, in turn, will lead to an increase in fees.
Anyone who is lucky enough to be financially able to own racehorses is a very lucky man. I am fully conscious of that. Racing in recent years has undergone a period of unparalleled prosperity, but

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that may not last. Recent events in the City are perhaps an indication that it will not be so easy to own racehorses. I remind the Committee that it is a very expensive business, and conceivably some noble Lords may not be aware that it is much more expensive to own one racehorse than to have your son educated at Eton. When the chill economic winds begin to blow it is very important, if racing is to continue and flourish, that it should be as inexpensive as possible for the owner. I am convinced that racing on Sunday will add to the cost of ownership.
Times change. When I was a lad we talked about racing as a sport; indeed, it was called the sport of kings. That will not do at all these days. Now we talk about the racing industry, never about a sport; but basically it is a sport. Although the punter, through the levy board, makes an enormous contribution to racing—without the 1961 Act racing as we know it would not exist in this country—at the end of the day it is the owner who is the goose that lays the golden egg. Nothing should be done, privileged though he is, to add to the expense for the owner; for without the owner the racing industry—as I understand I must now call it—will wither away.
Both with sympathy for the workers whom the noble Lord, Lord Graham, has associated himself with and because I believe that in the long term it is against the interests of owners to have Sunday racing, I support the amendment. I can only ask the forgiveness of my colleagues in the Jockey Club and also my fellow members of the Racehorse Owners' Association.
Lord Robertson of Oakridge: I support the amendment, but I shall not expand on that. I want to ask the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, one question. He speaks about:
"All established employees employed in connection with a licensed betting office or a track."
Does that include stable lads?
Lord Graham of Edmonton: Yes. If there is any dubiety about that, I should certainly be prepared to bring forward a drafting amendment. As far as I am concerned, this covers all those who are employed in the racing industry.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: I object to this amendment because it is one which singles out sport specifically and does not deal with all the other activities that go on on Sundays. If we are to have laws protecting people's rights on Sundays, they should be applicable to all people who are called upon to work, or want to work or have to work on a Sunday, such as coal miners, railway workers, bus drivers, catering staff, the police, the people who provide our electricity, telephone service and gas. It seems nonsensical to say that sport ought to be treated in some curiously different way from all the other activities that go on on a Sunday. There is seven-day working in certain mills and manufacturing industries.
I sympathise with the notion that I believe lies behind this—that people should be properly rewarded and properly respected in relation to their views on working on a Sunday.
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As regards the Tote, no one will be required to work on a Sunday who does not want to, and no one will be penalised for not so doing. The noble Lord, Lord Graham, mentioned the lady on BBC Radio who said that she was a member of a tote team and did not want to work on a Sunday. She does not have to. Lots of other people will be willing to do it. Whenever we have our credit offices open on a Sunday, two to three times the number of people want to work as there are places available for them to do so.
The noble Lord, Lord Graham, mentioned the phenomenon in which people might work for seven days a week in betting shops. This is simply not possible because neither the employers nor the employees would wish to have such a curious state of affairs. If betting offices are to be open on a Sunday, as appears to be the suggestion hanging in the balance, clearly a proper shift system will have to be worked out by negotiation, and people who did not want to work on a Sunday would not have to. I suppose that railway workers who do not want to work on a Sunday do not have to either.
It is a great mistake to inject into this harmless little Bill, which has been made to look more dangerous every second that goes by, a vast apparatus of legislation which if it is applicable to the sporting industry must be equally applicable to the rest of industry. That is trying to do by stealth something that ought to be done openly throughout the entire country. Therefore I must oppose the amendment.
I should like to say one word about stable lads.
Lord Elton: Before the noble Lord leaves that point perhaps I may ask him to take on board the fact that this amendment is directed to existing members of the industry. The difference between a policeman and a person working now in the racing industry is that when the policeman joined he knew that he would have to work on Sundays. When the person joined the racing industry there was no proposal that there should be racing on Sundays. There is a genuine difference.
The other point that I should like to make (since I do not wish to rise twice and we all ought to go home quite soon) is that a great many of us believe it is not sufficient to ensure that everybody possible gets one day or two days a week of rest if they wish it; we wish one of those days to be the same for everybody in the family.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: Order!
Lord Elton: Therefore the day of rest needs to be established on one day a week and that is Sunday. That is aside from the strong convictions I have about Sunday on religious grounds which I think would appeal to a wider audience.
9.15 p.m.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: I thank the noble Lord for his intervention but I am still a little mystified. Is he saying that if you join after this Bill becomes law you are not protected against working on Sunday?
Noble Lords: Yes.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: And that you are only protected if you join before?
Lord Elton: It is not my amendment, but that is the effect of it precisely. It is the established workers who are referred to in the schedule, not the new joiners.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: If that is the case it is not a very adequate distinction. Surely newcomers should have the same privileges as those who are there already because those who are there already will die and nobody will be protected by this manoeuvre.
I want to say one word about stable lads, who I feel have been the Cinderellas of the industry. They have been somewhat underpaid and are still underpaid even on their current minimum wages. Not only that, but there have been cases where trainers, either because they have no money or because they are rather unscrupulous, do not pay even the minimum wages. I regard that as a serious matter.
I am sure that the noble Lord will be delighted to hear that, with the advent of Sunday racing, the authorities concerned have been mightily stirred up to make sure that all trainers pay minimum wages. I think we shall move towards stable lads being paid a more reasonable wage. That is a direct result of the idea that there should be Sunday racing. So we have already had a good benefit from it and I can assure the noble Lord that there will be many wider and happier benefits from Sunday racing if it takes place. There will be more employment, not less, because nobody will work seven days a week. Extra staff will be taken on and so on. I still feel that if this schedule is necessary for sport it must be necessary for the entire country. It is not sensible to deal with sports alone with a schedule of that kind.
Baroness Ewart-Biggs: This amendment was chosen because the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, moved a similar amendment during the passage of the Shops Bill to protect the workers who were already employed before the law was changed. My noble friend chose this amendment because it had been moved by the Government during the passage of the previous Bill. If the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, does not like the amendment's wording he can amend it on Report. Everything he has just said points to the fact that he himself would very much like to see the workforce right behind the reform which he is bringing about. Successful sport on Sunday would need the support and the backing of the workforce. Therefore, so far as I can see, the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, agrees with the principle of the amendment. Perhaps he would like to re-word it for Report.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I think that two or three points need to be made. I do not doubt for a moment that what the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, has told the House is the intention of those who control the purse strings if racing on Sunday comes about. However, the people who work in the industry—and reference has been made to the stable lads—have their own store of experience against which to judge what their employers say will happen in the event of certain action.
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I have a copy of the Newmarket Weekly News in which it states that the stable lads are in an angry mood about their present pay and conditions and will use their demands as a bargaining tool. That was said by Mr. Bill Adams. The basic rate is £91·59, but some are paid less. Not for a moment are we saying that they are oppressed or badly done by in total. However, those who represent the interests of those people, including the Transport and General Workers Union, have told me that they would be happier if they did not have to rely on pleading their case. I shall use not the phrase, "going cap in hand".
The noble Lord, Lord Wyatt of Weeford, said that if someone does not want to work on a Sunday he does not have to. People are telling me that whether or not they want to work on Sunday there are certain circumstances in which it would be impossible not to do so. The noble Lord says that extra staff can be employed but I can envisage some employers trying not to take on extra staff. I can also envisage a situation where, when it comes to promotion or preferment within an organisation, willingness to work will be a crucial factor.
I do not say that this amendment is the be all and end all but it is a genuine attempt once more to resolve some of the problems that will occur if the Bill is not amended in this way. I earlier pleaded the case for the residents around the track and I am now pleading for those who feel that they need the protection of the law. We in this House ought to give that to them. I beg to move.
Lord Trevethin and Oaksey: Although I do not look forward to working on Sundays, I strongly support this amendment so far as concerns stable lads. It seems to me that a certain benefit of the introduction of Sunday racing may be that the stable lads will obtain a more satisfactory agreement under which the cowboy trainers, to whom the noble Lord has referred, are compelled to pay the minimum wage. Also, a satisfactory wage structure will be built up in the industry to enable lads to improve their status. I cannot speak for Tote or betting shop employees, but from the point of view of the stable lads I believe that this amendment is necessary.
Lord Monson: I wonder whether we could have some guidance from the Government as to the merits or demerits of this amendment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 16 and 17 not moved.]
Lord Wyatt of Weeford Lord Wyatt of Weeford Moved Amendment No. 18:
Page 1, line 20, leave out subsection (2)
The noble Lord said: This is a consequential amendment because the word "track" has now been removed from Clause 1. I beg to move.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: I should be grateful if the noble Lord would say a little more about the significance of deleting the words referred to in the amendment—that is, the whole of subsection (2).
The whole premise of the Bill has rested upon a definition of the word "track", yet the amendment

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seeks to delete the only reference that there is to a track or sporting event. There must be some deep meaning as to why, in a Bill that relates to Sunday sports, we should have deleted from it one of the strong pegs on which we can hang our understanding of what is meant. I should be grateful if the noble Lord would explain.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: It is because we have already covered the same situation in an earlier amendment. Originally all sports grounds and suchlike were described as tracks. Even a ping-pong room or a snooker hall came under the heading of tracks. Therefore it seemed wiser, simpler and clearer to leave the amendment that was passed earlier as it stands and alter subsection (2) to match it.
Lord Elton: Can the noble Lord kindly point us to the definition in the earlier amendment, which I take it is Amendment No. 3? It does not contain a definition of "track".
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: It does not have to, because that point has already been covered by the earlier amendment.
Lord Elton: It is late and no doubt we shall return to this point, but I must just stress that I see danger in this amendment and the noble Lord ought to be aware of it. We may have to return to this matter at Report stage, because as I recall the word "track" occurs in amendments that have been put in; in fact, it is essential for the working of the amendment that the noble Lord has just accepted so prudently, courteously and well. To remove the definition in what he has accepted seems to me perhaps to be a considerable mistake which may involve him as well as us in embarrassment. I quite accept that if he is briefed that this amendment is consequential on his first amendment—
Lord Graham of Edmonton: Perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to say—
Lord Elton: Perhaps I may first finish what I was saying. I am merely saying that it would probably be open to the Committee to accept on trust that the amendment is consequential, but on the understanding that we shall return to it at a later stage if it makes the Bill nonsensical, which it may do.
The Earl of Caithness: I think that on this occasion my noble friend is wrong. He is not wrong very often.
Lord Elton: Oh yes; all the time.
The Earl of Caithness: With his experience of the Home Office, the noble Lord is seldom wrong, but I think that he may be wrong on this occasion. We gave the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt of Weeford, some help with this matter. The point of Amendment No. 3, which is the main amendment on which the
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amendment that we are now discussing is consequential, is in fact better worded. It has the correct wording, in contrast to the first clause which was originally in the Bill.
Lord Elton: My noble friend does not address the point that I am making. The wording may be more effective, elegant, up-to-date and splendid but it does not contain a definition of "track". Unless I am mistaken, it seems to me that the so-called consequential amendment strikes out the definition of "track". The word "track" is in an amendment to the Bill. The Bill now contains the word "track". It did not do so under the amendment referred to by my noble friend, which is the first amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt.
It contains it now that the wording has been amended. In normal statutory procedure it is usual to include a definition of the terms used. I think I may just possibly be right and that my noble friend just possibly is wrong. Indeed, if I keep speaking for long enough, someone may bring him a piece of paper to confirm it.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: There is a solution to this difficulty. The amendment that we have just passed, which includes a schedule relating to protection of employees, contains the word "track". To that extent events have moved on since the Committee accepted Amendment No. 3. The way out of this difficulty is for the Committee not to proceed with this amendment if, in order to make sense, at the next stage we look at further amendments. Rather than accept the amendment and then put it right, the sensible thing to do would be not to accept this amendment and if there is need for clarification at the next stage a further amendment can be made.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: Perhaps I may point out that in a moment I shall be moving another amendment which alters the title. That will clear up the mystery for the noble Lord, Lord Elton.
The Earl of Caithness: Perhaps I may clarify this matter. In fact the amendment that we are discussing, which is consequential on Amendment No. 3, is designed to ensure that it represents a surer way of providing that no offence is committed under the 1780 Act if there is Sunday racing. The trouble is now that the Bill is a piece of drafting nonsense.
Lord Craigmyle: If the noble Lord will look at Amendment No. 20, to which we shall be coming in a moment and to which we have already agreed, there is at the top of page 12 of the Marshalled List a definition of "track" which is almost identical to the one which we are now deleting.
Lord Elton: If it is there, I stand or sit corrected.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
[Amendment No. 19 not moved.]
9.30 p.m.
Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton moved Amendment No. 20:
After Clause 3, insert the following new schedule:

RIGHTS OF ESTABLISHED EMPLOYEES CONCERNING SUNDAY WORKING
Rights not be dismissed for refusing Sunday work
1. Subject to paragraph 3 below, the dismissal of an employee who is employed in connection with a licensed betting office or a track and was employed as such on the day before the commencement date shall be regarded as unfair for the purposes of Part V of the Employment Protection (Consolidation) Act 1978 ("the 1978 Act") if the reason for the dismissal (or, if more than one, the principal reason) is that he has refused to do work in connection with a licensed betting office or a track on a Sunday.
Right not to have action short of dismissal taken for refusing Sunday work
2. Subject to paragraph 3 below, every employee who is employed in connection with a licensed betting office or track and was employed as such on the day before the commencement date shall have the right not to have action (short of dismissal) taken against him by his employer for the purpose of compelling him to do or agree to do, or penalising him for refusing to do, work in connection with a licensed betting office or a track on a Sunday.
Exclusion for contractual Sunday working
3. Paragraphs 1 and 2 above do not apply where the work in question is work which at the time of the dismissal or, as the case may be, of the taking of the action the employee was obliged to do on the Sunday in question by virtue of an agreement made by him before the commencement date or of a written agreement made by him on or after that date.
Modifications of 1978 Act in paragraph 1 cases
4. Section 54 of the 1978 Act (right not to be unfairly dismissed) shall apply to a dismissal regarded as unfair by virtue of paragraph 1 above regardless of the period for which the employee has been employed and of his age; and accordingly sections 64(1) and 64A(1) of that Act (which disapply the right not to be unfairly dismissed in cases where the employee has not been continuously employed for qualifying periods or has attained retiring age) shall not apply to such a dismissal.
5.—(1) Where in the case of a dismissal regarded as unfair by virtue of paragraph 1 above an additional award falls to be made under section 71(2)(b) of the 1978 Act (compensation where employee not reinstated or re-engaged in accordance with an order for reinstatement or re-engagement following unfair dismissal), the amount shall be not less than twenty-six and not more than fifty-two weeks' pay.
(2) For the purposes of this paragraph the amount of a week's pay shall be calculated in accordance with Schedule 14 of the 1978 Act.
6. Subsection (3) of section 57 of the 1978 Act (determination of question whether dismissal fair or unfair) shall have effect subject to paragraph 1 above.
Application of 1978 Act provisions in paragraph 2 cases
7.—(1) Sections 24 and 26 and 133 of the 1978 Act (complaint to industrial tribunal, compensation and conciliation officers) shall apply in relation to paragraph 2 above as they apply in relation to section 23 of that Act.
(2) The following provisions of the 1978 Act, namely—

section 129 (remedy for infringement of certain rights),

section 132 (recoupment of unemployment benefit and, supplementary benefit),

section 136 (appeals), and

Part IX (miscellaneous and supplemental provisions),

shall apply as if paragraph 2 above were contained in Part II of that Act.
General interpretation
8. In this Schedule—

"action", "contract of employment", "employee", "employer", "employment" and "original contract of employment", have the meanings given in section 53(1) of the 1978 Act;

"commencement date" means the date on which this Act comes into force;

"dismissal" has the same meaning as in the 1978 Act;

"the 1978 Act" means the Employment Protection (Consolidation) Act 1978;

"Track" means premises on which races of any description, athletic, sports or other sporting events take place;

"Week" means a week ending with a Saturday.")

The noble Lord said: This amendment is consequential upon an earlier amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
In the Title:
Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 21:
Line 2, after ("tracks") insert ("used after 2 p.m.")
The noble Lord said: May I have guidance from the Table as to whether this amendment is in order in the light of previous defeats? We are talking in terms of after 2 p.m. I simply seek guidance. If we have lost the argument about 2 o'clock, this amendment is a non-starter, is it not?
The Chairman of Committees: I think that the noble Lord is absolutely right and this amendment is pre-empted.
[Amendment No. 21 not moved.]
The Chairman of Committees: The next amendment is No. 22. If Amendment No. 22 is agreed to, I cannot call No. 23.
Lord Graham of Edmonton Lord Graham of Edmonton: moved Amendment No. 22:
Line 2, leave out from ("Sundays") to end of line 5
The noble Lord said: I am just trying to orientate myself. This amendment needs to be made in the light of the amendment that we carried in respect of the change. In other words, this amendment to the Long Title is in order. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 23 not moved.]
Lord Wyatt of Weeford Lord Wyatt of Weeford moved Amendment No. 24:
Leave out the Title and insert the following new Title—
("An Act to exempt races, athletic sports and other sporting events from the entertainments and amusements to which the Sunday Observance Act 1780 applies and to allow betting to take place on Sunday afternoons on tracks and in licensed betting offices.")
The noble Lord said: This amendment is consequential on another amendment which has already been passed. I beg to move.
The Chairman of Committees: I have to call, as an amendment to Amendment No. 24, Amendment No. 25.
[Amendment No. 25 not moved.]
Lord Elton: This is really for the noble Lord, Lord Graham, but the last amendment which was carried had an effect, and I am just wondering whether it is congruent with the last few words, "and in licensed betting offices", proposed in the new Long Title. I do not know what are the procedural requirements of the Committee, but I should have thought, if it was proper before the Bill was amended to have this Long Title, the Committee might be in order to accept it now and delete the last five words at a later stage. The only alternative would appear to be a manuscript amendment at this stage, and I do not think that we would wish to get ourselves into that procedure. I look for guidance on this. I have expended the sum total of my wisdom.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: We seek guidance. We want to be consistent with the earlier amendments which the Committee has accepted. I am certainly willing to move, support or not move that which does precisely that. So I think we need some guidance from the Table.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: If we are left with the old title, that in a way would suit me quite well. The original title was,
"An Act to permit the admission of persons by the payment of money or by tickets sold for money to tracks on Sundays and to permit betting on those tracks after the hour of twelve noon and in licensed betting offices on Sundays after the hour of twelve noon".
Lord Elton: I take that, and it is not acceptable. I merely submit that if the Long Title is to be congruent with the Bill which it may be—I hope that we shall have a definitive decision in a moment—the Long Title which includes the words
"and in licensed betting offices"
should be amended since that effect has now been taken from the Bill.
All I ask is whether this is something that has to be decided now or whether an amendment can be brought in on Report. It would be much cleaner to do it now, but one does not normally proceed with words which are not printed on an Order Paper in this place. There is no doubt a standing order about manuscript amendments. Perhaps my noble friend is in a position to advise us on the matter.
The Earl of Caithness: It is because we are in the mess that we are that my noble friend and I now agree, having agreed to disagree earlier. Because this was a consequential amendment on an earlier amendment, which has now been overtaken by a result of a Division, we are in a mess. I could perhaps suggest to the Committee that this is accepted and that it is dealt with on Report in the normal manner.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: If one does that, the Minister is saying that this matter is clearly without prejudice. If on reflection the accepting of this amendment (which is an alteration to the Long Title) does not fit properly with the amendments to the Bill that we have carried, there should be no dispute that we will be changing the Long Title at the next stage.
Viscount Caldecote: Would it not be better in these circumstances not to make any change and to leave the Long Title as it stands and to alter that on Report?
The Earl of Caithness: I have now received further advice from the Table and I believe that the right course is not to accept it. I am happy to change my mind.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: That is done without prejudice. If the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt of Weeford, or others, after reflection, consider any changes should be made to the Long Title or to the words of the Bill they are free to move an amendment to either at the next stage.
Lord Elton: Everyone is looking at everyone else for an opinion. If it were in order for me to move now that Amendment No. 24 be amended by the deletion of the last one, two, three, four or five words, I would do so, but I gather that it is not. Therefore, I am happy to agree with my noble friend who, before I said that, said that I was right and that he agreed with me and to continue that happy condition until the Report stage.
Lord Wyatt of Weeford: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Title, as amended, agreed to; House resumed: Bill reported with amendments.

BA/B.Cal Merger
9.40 p.m.
Lord Bethell Lord Bethell rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether, when considering the recommendation of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission on the proposed merger of British Airways and British Caledonian, they will take into account the fact that a merger would give the new company a 92 per cent. dominant interest in British scheduled air transport within Europe and the effect that this will have on the interests of passengers in terms of fares and quality of service.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I make little excuse for rising at this late hour to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. We are led to believe that within a few days the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry will give his decision on the proposed merger between British Airways and British Caledonian Airways. If that decision is positive and the merger is allowed to proceed, as I have indicated in the text of my Unstarred Question it will leave the new company with as much as 92 per cent. (and some say 95 per cent.) of the British scheduled airline sector in the European market.
The question I should like to put to my noble friend is whether he will take that matter into account in considering the interests of passengers and the comfort and standard of service to be made available to those who fly. I am not expecting my noble friend to give me any decision or any hint of a decision as to what the Secretary of State will decide in a few days'

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time. However, I should be grateful if he could tell us whether it is true, as we have read in the press and heard on the media, that the Monopolies and Mergers Commission has submitted its report to the Secretary of State. It would be interesting to know when that submission took place, if it has, and how long the Secretary of State is expected to take to consider the matter. If my noble friend is able to give us an indication on that matter it will be a great help to those of us who are following the question with considerable care.
Some of the issues that I propose to raise this evening would have made more sense if they could have been put in the presence of my noble friend Lord King, the chairman of the public limited company that is most closely involved. Until a short time ago, he was within the precincts of the Palace. However, it seems that he has not been able to find time to attend your Lordships' House to speak on the matter. Perhaps we can gather his opinions from the media, television or various other sources.
The problem that seems to concern many of us is why British Airways should have seen fit to offer such a large amount of money—£237 million—for a company whose assets are less than half that sum. It would be a matter of no objection whatsoever if British Airways were to make an offer for the purchase of aircraft, buildings, offices, stands, reservation counters and other paraphernalia at Gatwick Airport. However, it seems that a much higher price is placed on the acquisition of British Caledonian. That leaves one to wonder what British Airways actually hopes to acquire.
It seems to me to be likely that British Airways hopes to acquire certain privileges presently enjoyed by British Caledonian Airways. I have in mind the landing slots, routes and various other facilities available for B.Cal at Gatwick Airport. Your Lordships will recall that British Airways already has a virtual monopoly on facilities at Heathrow Airport, with only a small input in terms of international scheduled travel from British Midland Airways. The proposed merger, if it goes through, will give the new company a pretty dominant position at Gatwick as well.
One therefore must pose the question, in all honesty, whether one major airport is enough. Is it really the case that the company needs the two main London airports? What will happen to the other airlines who run scheduled services to Europe? Will the 5 per cent. or 7 per cent. who remain be squeezed out to airports less attractive to passengers, such as Stansted and airports even further afield from central London?
I have no doubt as to the intentions of the Government in this matter. They have been proclaimed so clearly and carefully in recent years. In a recent White Paper called Airline Competition Policy it was stated that:
"The objectives of UK airline policy are to encourage a sound and competitive multi-airline industry with a variety of airlines of different characteristics".
The predecessor of the present Secretary of State for Transport, Mr. John Moore, said in October 1986:
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"We want to break up the cartels, abolish the monopolies, lift the restrictions and let the people fly".
It has been my contention for some 10 years that it would be possible if there were indeed a break-up of the cartels and an abolition of the monopolies to let the people fly. It would give people freedom of the skies and air fares would fall by as much as 25 to 40 per cent. Losses or problems would not be created for airlines in the long term and there would be a certain tightening up and pulling in of slack. Ultimately it would lead to the opening up of an entirely new market in the scheduled airlines sector with people flying on a scheduled basis who had never done so before. In other words the market would increase even though prices might fall. This is the background to the proposal which I believe is now on the desk of the Secretary of State, that a merger should be permitted which would give the two British scheduled airlines most closely involved 92 to 93 per cent. of the market.
The only way that the competition which the Government sincerely support will be brought about is by creating entirely new airlines to compete with the old-fashioned carriers, which up to now have charged very high fares. This means a number of Davids coming to fight against Goliath. It is certainly to the credit of the Government that British Midland Airways has been given every facility to expand its domestic operations in the United Kingdom and on the Heathrow to Amsterdam route. The Government have a lot to be proud of in bringing this about.
If new airlines such as Air Europe, which has been given certain routes to exploit, is confronted with a monopoly of more than 90 per cent. it is like sending David to fight Goliath without a sling and without a stone. It is not fair and I hope that my noble friend Lord Young will take this into account.
I wish to mention certain facts which arouse my apprehension. Last Saturday British Airways lifted its unrestricted one-way fare from Heathrow to Brussels to £101. At the beginning of this year the fare was £93. There has therefore been an increase of around 9 per cent., which is twice the level of inflation. That means that those people who fly on an unrestricted basis from London to Brussels have to pay £202 for a return air ticket plus a further £5 for the airport tax at Brussels.
I suggest to your Lordships that a fare of over £200 for a return trip from London to Brussels is way out of proportion to the service provided. It is out of all proportion when one bears in mind the possibility of flying from London to Tenerife and back for less than £200. There are also the very reasonable fares which are available on the transatlantic routes, including those available on an unrestricted basis.
I see little justification for the increase in fares announced by British Airways last Saturday. I wish that my noble friend Lord King were here to give the reasons especially since on the same day Sabena increased its fare by exactly the same amount and to exactly the same point—£101. I wonder whether this is coincidence, whether it just happened, whether there was consultation or whether it is true, as British Airways have announced recently, that they have abolished or are abolishing their bilateral

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agreements with foreign airways in order to comply with the obligations imposed by our membership of the European Community and the requests—indeed, demands—sent to British Airways and other European airlines by the competition commissioner.
One cannot have it both ways. Either the airlines in question have done away with their bilateral agreements which, in the Commission's view, could be shown to have contravened the treaty, or there is still some sort of procedure that allows air fares to be lifted by exactly the same amount on exactly the same day from exactly the same number of pounds to exactly the same number of pounds. The same, of course, applies not only to the London-Brussels route but to the London-Frankfurt and the London-Rome routes.
My noble friend can make no comment on this because we are dealing with a public company but it could well be that the European Commission in Brussels will have to look at this situation very carefully. I do not know if it will conclude that what took place was consistent with European law, particularly if one bears in mind the fact that on certain other routes where there is competition in Europe—namely, Heathrow-Amsterdam and Heathrow-Dublin and Gatwick-Gibraltar—there has not been a hike in prices. Prices have stayed as they were a week ago. It certainly is a question that I wish British Airways could answer. Why is it possible to hold prices down on routes like Dublin-Gibraltar or Amsterdam, where there is competition, whereas where there is no competition prices increase by twice the rate of inflation?
All this augurs badly for the future if the merger is allowed to proceed. It augurs badly for the track record of British Airways, who, while they try to proclaim their belief in free enterprise and liberalisation, and even deregulation, in reality find that they are pitching their prices at what they believe the market will bear. That makes it all the more important for other airlines such as Air Europe, British Midland and London European to have every possible encouragement by the Government to compete with these giants and provide a better service at a cheaper price.
That will not happen if this merger goes through. How can it, given the capacity, the ability and potential for predatory pricing that will be at the disposal of an airline that possesses more than 90 per cent. of the European scheduled market in British hands?
I ask my noble friend whether he will undertake to communicate my remarks to the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and whether he will be able to give us some information about the timetable of the decision-making process on this very important matter.
I have to say I think it is a pity that this has been, so far as I know, the only substantive debate on this important decision within the British Parliament since the proposed merger was announced in July. We then had the long Recess and there has been very little opportunity for this crucial matter, affecting a central plank of the Government's policy, to be
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debated either in your Lordships' House or in another place.
In particular it is a shame that those persons most closely involved have not been able to take part in this debate this evening. Nevertheless I have made my points. I feel sure that the Secretary of State will study what is said and what other noble Lords will contribute to this debate. I am very glad it has been found possible to interject at least some parliamentary input into the process of deciding on this matter. I look forward with keen interest to what my noble friend will have to say to us in a few minutes' time.
9.56 p.m.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, I am conscious of the lateness of the hour, but I want to begin by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, on seizing the opportunity. I know how these things are handled by the business managers. They have provided us, even as late in the day as this, with the opportunity, although perhaps the significance of what we say may not be capable of being taken into account. But I live in hope.
The Secretary of State has an onerous responsibility. We are aware that he will want to act quickly now that he has the report. I would very much hope that, in the manner in which he constantly seeks to ensure that he has the matter right, he will listen to the words spoken tonight. The debate has provided an opportunity not only for the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Bethel, whose experience and tenacity in these matters is well understood. It has also provided my noble friend Lord Underhill with the opportunity to say a few words, as it were, officially from this side of the House.
I speak, if I have any claim at all, without a direct vested interest but with a strong connection, as the House knows, with the Co-operative movement. That movement has always professed to represent the interests of consumers. I was impressed by the words chosen by the noble Lord, Lord Bethell: they were the ones that rang bells with me and my responsibility to look very carefully at what is said in this House.
We are talking here about the possibility of a dominance which certainly amounts to a monopoly. We are talking of the interests of passengers in terms of fares and the quality of service. The noble Lord, Lord Bethell, said that what we want from anything that happens in the future is better service at a cheaper price. That is a laudable ambition. I very much hope that the decision announced by the Secretary of State, when it comes, will be seen by all as leading to that.
I am bound to say that the Co-operative movement, which has 8 million consumer members and trade amounting to £5 billion, increasingly takes an interest in the travel business, not least from the lower end of the market. Everyone is affected by air fares and service. I respect the interests of the businessman and of the Government, but I am also very much concerned about the effect of prices both on scheduled services and the charter business. It is a totality of business. I am very

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interested in the prices at which package holidays can be offered to the kind of people in whom the Co-operative movement has a great interest.
I look at some of the arguments for the merger which may well be approved with or without caveat. The first argument is the need to compete with other airlines of size. The mega-carrier argument is quite plainly a myth. If one wants bigness for its own sake, then of course the merger provides a bigger business. But it will not necessarily provide a more efficient business. Bigness of itself does not guarantee efficiency. It does not guarantee good service.
The noble Lord, Lord Bethell, was fair enough to mention a number of other independent airlines which are much smaller than BA or the possible merged company. He referred to British Midland, Air Europe and Dan-Air which are all giving first class service to the consumer. I hope that the "mega" argument will not be taken into account whatever decision the Minister comes to. He is of course entitled to come to his own conclusion. I hope that the "mega" argument will not form part of it.
I am conscious of the proscription on the Minister's ability to talk tonight. But if he can I want him to say something which will reconcile the contents of the Government White Paper Airline Competition Policy with a merged company. He will be speaking on behalf of a Government whose White Paper says:
"The object of UK airline policy is to encourage a sound and competitive multi-airline industry with a variety of airlines with different characteristics".
That point needs to be answered. If the merger is approved, it will fly in the face of the Ark of the Covenant of the Government's airline policy—to promote competition in all markets. I cannot see that. I cannot see the Government continuing to profess that they remain committed to airline deregulation in Europe. It is not too strong to say that if the merger is approved, after all that has been said in the past two or three years, it could be seen as a U-turn by the Government.
A number of matters have been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bethell. Not the least of those have been some of the nonsensical illustrations he has given of the cost per mile of travelling by scheduled flight in Europe in comparison to travelling in other parts of the world. I hope the noble Lord will forgive me but my prime source is submissions he made to the House of Lords committee two or three years ago when it looked at the whole question of costs. He mentioned the London-Brussels fare. At that time it was £81; it has now been put up. The fare was 38.38p per mile when comparable mile rates for London to New York were 6.22p and for London to Athens 4.19p. Those were the rates of the competitors of the European scheduled air lines.
The noble Lord has played a major part in prodding the Government to do what I think they want to do—to have an impact on the nonsense of the cartel arrangement. It costs more for those who travel on scheduled flights and there is a spin-off for those of us who may not be regular travellers like the noble Lord (that is why he is so knowledgeable and fed up with the situation) but who travel only once a year.
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I hope that the Secretary of State will recognise that if the merger is approved there may be some benefits of scale, but I doubt it. The impact on the Government's competition philosophy which is designed to reduce costs and widen opportunities for millions more people will be badly affected.
We need to find ways of opening up the charter market and scheduled flights rather than closing them down. The Government will be well advised to look at ways in which they can encourage some of the entrepreneurs who seek to look after themselves and establish a business but also to provide a service to consumers. Mr. John Moore said:
"We want to see ludicrously high fares within Europe cut down to size. We want to break up the cartels, abolish the monopolies, lift the restrictions and let the people fly".
Those words are being negatived with the possibility of the merger. There is no promise that the merger is designed to reduce costs or to enable more people to fly at a reasonable price. The evidence is that the consumer has been badly affected.
Reference has been made to the European Court of Justice. There is a tremendous amount of work to be done. I do not think that we will have the competition needed to help cut costs to the consumer if the merger takes place.
I appreciate that the Minster will not be able to say very much on the prime issue of what will happen to the reference. However, I think that he can say something useful to those outside the House. Many companies, many individuals and many organisations will want to hear from the Minister that he is concerned continually to provide a better service at a cheaper cost to the consumer.
10.7 p.m.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, I am glad to support the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, in the proposition that he has put forward, particularly since he has fought such a long, often lonely and costly battle in his attempt to achieve a better deal for people using air transport. Like him, I regret that the debate is being held at a time when the noble Lords, Lord King and Lord Young, are absent so that we seem to be playing Hamlet without the prince and the ghost.
The Government's position does not surprise us. We on these Benches very much hope that the Government will oppose the increased monopoly power that the merger would bring about. In various privatisation discussions in this House, we have always stressed that what matters is not ownership but competition, because it is through competition that the consumer is served.
The Government in certain moods and with certain hats on have always supported the idea of competition. They have told us repeatedly that competition in a free market is at the centre of their economic policy. In dealing with airlines and air fares in the past they have attempted to put that policy into practice. We recall that it was as a result of such effort that the reduction in the fares from London to Amsterdam was effected—not a great triumph and one that could have gone a great deal further, but it was a step in the right direction.

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We hope that the Government are not turning their backs on their determination to introduce competition into civil aviation. As other noble Lords have said, we hope that the Government will be consistent with the policies put forward in their White Paper on airline competition policy, which has been quoted by other noble Lords. The White Paper says that the Government's objective is to encourage a sound and competitive multi-airline industry and to promote competition in all markets. It notes that the Civil Aviation Authority came to the conclusion that there should be some reduction in the relative size of British Airways. It is true that that was three years ago and that times change. Other airlines have an adequate opportunity to develop and prosper, including at least one airline fit to replace British Airways on any major intercontinental route should the need arise.
Which of the Government's two lines of approach will they adopt? Will they back their own conviction and the importance of competition or will they retreat from it, as on occasion they seem to have done in their privatisation policies, and support the large organisation with its near monopolistic powers instead of backing the competitive line which it has been their policy in the past to pursue?
It has already been said that British Airways need to be larger in order to compete with the large airlines throughout the world. But when one looks at the figures which support the claim of these mega-airlines one can easily be misled because the numbers using many American airlines are greatly swollen by internal flights in the United States. That does not affect the competitive position of British Airways vis à vis these airlines because British Airways are not competing and are unlikely ever to compete on those routes. Why should they?
Another point on competition—the argument is surely strongest inside the United Kingdom—is this. Whatever competition will there be on the UK routes if British Airways are allowed to swallow British Caledonian? The great fear is that not only will their strength make it extremely difficult for charter lines and other lines in this country to compete but, as a previous speaker has asked, what will happen at Gatwick?
We have received letters, as I am sure has the Minister, from the charter lines pointing out that if British Airways can dominate Gatwick, as they already dominate Heathrow, the charter lines may well be pushed out to Luton and Stansted, which are by no means such good bases from which to conduct their operations. In the interests of having competition inside this country it is extremely important that British Airways should not be able to dominate the entire field.
It is said, and it is true, that the financial position of British Caledonian at the moment requires that some action should be taken if British Caledonian is to survive and the people employed by British Caledonian are not to lose their jobs. That is a matter of very considerable importance. However, it must be argued that it is not necessary for this salvage operation to be carried out by British Airways. Is it
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not possible for an arrangement to be made with one of the other airlines in this country? I do not know whether they are prepared to come forward or not but it could be encouraged.
I would even go so far as to ask why we should be afraid of an amalgamation with a Continental airline. I know that this is anathema to many people, but we are now inside the European Community. I understand that the Government are determined to have a single internal market. How very odd it is that we should be so frightened of money coming in from foreign airlines to collaborate with British Caledonian if that is a possible option. Surely such options should at least be examined.
I know it will be said that there is a limit of 25 per cent. upon ownership by a foreign organisation if it were to purchase British Caledonian. But that is a man-made obstacle. If the Government wanted to establish competition and to salvage British Caledonian without forcing it to sell out to British Airways, then surely there would be some other way in which an arrangement could be made, a sale organised, which would salvage British Caledonian without creating this monopoly which will undoubtedly have a devastating effect on competition.
The Government have declared themselves in favour of competition. We need to reduce the absurd air fares quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, with which we are all familiar. It is perfectly ridiculous that we have to pay the prices we pay in order to fly to Brussels. You only have to compare British fares with the cost of flights internally in the United States to see how farcical the situation is. It is a scandal that it will continue. It will be the negation of the Government's declared competition policy if they support action which will further rather than reduce the already excessive monopoly in civil aviation.
10.15 p.m.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, has given an opportunity for views to be expressed on what might be the Monopolies and Mergers Commission's decision on the proposed merger. Very definitive stands have been taken against the merger. Frankly I cannot be so definitive as other noble Lords in saying either yes or no to the merger. I want to see the MMC's report. I want to see the evidence presented to it. I want to see the reasons for its recommendation. I want to see the Minister's decision and I want to see the reasons for it. Then we shall be able to have, I hope, a full discussion on it in Parliament, because this matter just cannot be dealt with by saying, "We think the merger is good", or not, "for these reasons". It involves the whole question of civil aviation policy and of international agreements and the position of BA as our national airline, which is a matter we have discussed on other occasions. Therefore it is not a simple yes or no to the merger.
When the Answer to the PNQ in another place was repeated here on 16th July my noble friend Lord Williams of Elvel dealt with the matter on that occasion. He urged that the merger should go to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. He did so

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because he said it was of an exceptional nature as it involved a reversal of government policy in trying to promote a second force airline. All noble Lords who have spoken referred to that. I refreshed myself on the Government's airline competition policy over the weekend. Therefore I am fully aware of the difference that a merger could make to the Government's airline policy. I also refreshed myself on the Edwards Report of 1969, which recommended a publicly-owned national airline with a viable second force.
Noble Lords have received briefings from all sides. It is true that figures have been given which would justify the statements that have been made, including the possibility that the merger would mean that 92 per cent. of all United Kingdom passengers to Europe would be carried by the one carrier. There are fears that charter flights may be transferred to Stansted. There are also fears that the BA-B.Cal merger would mean that the airline might be a dominant body both at Gatwick and Heathrow.
What we know is that B.Cal wants a partner. I use that word but we understand that it might have to be a take-over. It is in some financial difficulties. I do not share the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, that it would not matter if that partner were a Continental airline. There are certain problems about that.
Reference has been made to the United States mega carriers. We ought to look at the position carefully. I do not want to go into detail because, as I said, I do not think this is the occasion to go into details of civil aviation policy. But I have referred on previous occasions to the effects of deregulation in the United States. Figures have been advanced, which have not been challenged, that the original 36 carriers in the States were joined by some 198 new carriers, but 160 of these have been lost by being taken over, by merger or by bankruptcy.
In 1986 five major airlines in the United States handled 76 per cent. of passenger miles. Despite deregulation the nine major airlines carried 94 per cent. of United States traffic. It has been said that we should not worry about the mega carriers. Do the mega carriers pose a threat? I hope that the Monopolies and Mergers Commission will go into that question and give us the answer.
Five of the United States airlines each carry 50 million or more passengers a year. In contrast the British Airways-British Caledonian merger will carry some 20 million passengers a year. Therefore there is a great difference. It has been argued that, because a great proportion of the mega carriers' flights are internal to the United States, it is not important; but if it puts a carrier in a financial position from which it can exercise considerable clout in trying to get agreements for other routes then it is of some importance.
I am one of those who believes that for a long time governments will still be involved in bilateral agreements. A carrier carrying 80 million passengers a year compared with one carrying 50 million a year may be in a position with possible financial advantages to exercise clout. I want to know whether the Monopolies and Mergers Commission—and the Minister cannot tell me this yet—has looked at this
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aspect and taken into consideration the point that there may a threat. I believe it is correct to say that over the past five years the large carriers of the United States have taken a larger share of the North Atlantic market.
Reference has been made to the traffic to Europe. Of the scheduled international passengers flying in and out of Britain 57 per cent. are with foreign airlines. If that is correct then it is a fact that has not been mentioned tonight. British Airways and British Caledonian between them carry only 38 per cent. If that is true we have to worry about it. We have said before when debating other issues of aviation policy that British Airways—and I am referring to the time when BA was a publicly-owned corporation—had to compete with other international airlines on many of its routes. It had to compete not only with companies from this country but with international airlines. We have to consider whether a merger would assist Britain in retaining and perhaps increasing its share of the airline market for those flying in and out of Britain. That surely is of vital interest to us. Would a strong British airline be better able to resist United States mega carriers pushing into various routes?
Reference has been made to the domestic routes. I understand that airlines other than British Caledonian and British Airways carry nearly half the domestic scheduled passengers in the United Kingdom. My noble friend referred to the independent carriers. It would appear that the independent carriers are doing what we want, at least in competition on domestic routes in this country.
Perhaps I should quote the statement on the merger made by the chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority on 23rd July. Mr. Tugendhat said:
"There are benefits to be derived from the takeover and there have been changes in world civil aviation in recent years. Nevertheless, as the CAA has already said, the proposed takeover raises important issues of airline competition and airports policy".
That is why I say it is a detailed question which cannot be dealt with by a short speech at this time of night. The chairman went on to say:
"It is important that those who will have to take decisions about this proposed takeover should also understand what we cannot do"—
that is, what the Civil Aviation Authority cannot do.
"We have the power to substitute one carrier for another on a route, but not in order to make structural changes as such and it is clear that our ability to respond to structural changes in the industry is limited".
I think that is an important statement, because, if the Monopolies and Mergers Commission should approve the merger but lay down certain conditions such as transfer of routes, that does not bring in extra competition but it is a policy of substitution or of transfer. That must therefore be looked at carefully when we see the MMC report.
Major considerations must be to see what is in the best interests of the consumers; that is, the passengers using the airlines. They must also be to see what is in the best interests of the aviation industry. I think that both those aspects must be considered together.
I should like to see the MMC report. Like the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, I wish to be told when we may see it—not just when it will be given to the Minister but when it will be published—rather than have a leakage through the press. I should like to see the evidence

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advanced by the various bodies to the MMC; I should like to see its conclusions and to know why it has arrived at those conclusions. When the Secretary of State has made his decision upon the recommendations, I should like to know the reason on which he has based his decision.
I believe that when we have that information it will be the time when Parliament should have a full-scale discussion involving the whole question of civil aviation policy, because I do not believe that the question of this particular merger can be divorced from the general question of aviation policy and even that of airports policy.
10.26 p.m.
Lord Beaverbrook: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, for raising this matter and for giving me the opportunity to hear the range of opinions which have been expressed this evening about aspects of this Government's policy both towards mergers and towards the airline industry. The noble Lord, Lord Bethell, has made clear his concerns about the dominance which a merged British Airways and British Caledonian could have in the market for European scheduled airline services. I have noted with interest all the points which have been made by noble Lords this evening and will draw them to the attention of my noble friend Lord Young of Graffham and, where appropriate, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport.
Today is the day on which the report of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission was due to be submitted to my noble friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. I can confirm that the report has been duly submitted by the commission within the three-month period which my noble friend Lord Young of Graffham specified in making that reference on 6th August. It now falls to him to read that report and consider its conclusions.
I do not know what that report says; and even if I did it would not be appropriate for me to discuss its findings before they have been fully considered by my noble friend Lord Young of Graffham, the report published and an announcement made. I am sure that he will want to consider the report very carefully in the light of the comments which have been made this evening. I am sure too that he will wish to take into account the Government's policy towards airlines and airports and to seek the views of his ministerial colleagues at the Department of Transport before reaching any decision which may be called for.
At this point I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to the commission's reporting periods for mergers. The Fair Trading Act 1973 states that a merger reference shall specify a period not greater than six months within which the commission is required to report. There is also the possibility of one extension of up to three months if it is requested by the commission for special reasons, and agreed by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry.
My noble friend Lord Young of Graffham and his predecessor at his department have been concerned that in general the maximum six-month reporting
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period is too long. In response to this concern the commission took steps to speed up its procedures, and such was its success that it has been allocated periods of only three months or four months to report in the case of all the merger references which have been made so far in 1987. The commission deserves particular credit for meeting its three-month target in the case of the merger which we are considering this evening, on which I have no doubt it will have received many representations.
As I have explained, it would not be appropriate for me to discuss issues directly arising from the MMC's investigation, but several noble Lords have raised some other points with which I shall attempt to deal.
One concern that has frequently been expressed—and it has been mentioned tonight by the noble Lord, Lord Graham—is that this merger proposal should be considered in the context of the Government's airline policy and that that policy should be safeguarded.
That policy, which was set out in the 1984 White Paper entitled Airline Competition Policy and reiterated in the British Airways prospectus, is very much concerned with the need to create competition opportunities for United Kingdom airlines and to ensure that there are adequate safeguards against anti-competitive behaviour. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport and the Civil Aviation Authority will wish to consider the commission's report very carefully with an eye to any implications that it may have for airline competition policy and for air transport licensing policy.
My noble friend Lord Bethell made a number of comments on air fares and I think I should just say that the Government's main priority on aviation matters in Europe has been to open up opportunities for competition. Our view is that this is the best way of bringing fares down as well as encouraging more and better services for customers. Notable progress has been made, for instance on the London to Amsterdam route as was mentioned by my noble friend, but we continue to press for more. We hope at last to see agreement on a liberalisation package by the European Commission when the Council of Transport Ministers next meets in December.
The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, made a number of points about transatlantic fares and internal fares in America. No doubt many of the answers for which he is looking will be contained in the MMC report and I am sure that he will look at that with great care and interest.
The noble Baroness, Lady Seear, made a suggestion about the possibility of some other solution for a merger or perhaps for someone to take an interest in British Caledonian. The MMC report is concerned only with the British Airways proposal and I think it is far too early to consider what could happen if there were the possibility of an alternative being required. Again I am sure that she will look at the MMC report with care and interest.
As I said, my noble friend Lord Young is considering very carefully the MMC's report on this merger proposal. I am sure that he will wish to

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publish the report and announce his decision, if there is any decision for him to make, as soon as is reasonably practical. I am confident that in considering the report he will take into account all the views that your Lordships have expressed in the Chamber this evening.
House adjourned at twenty-four minutes before eleven o'clock.