§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they consider that the British public are entitled to know what use is made of armaments exported from this country, and whether and where British personnel are engaged in foreign wars; and whether they will amplify Lord Glenarthur's Written Answer [H.L. Deb, 23rd July 1987, col. 1571] concerning reports of British weapons and instructors assisting fundamentalist counter-revolutionaries in Afghanistan.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Glenarthur)My Lords, as I told the noble Lord on 23rd July, it has been the practice of successive administrations not to comment on matters of this kind. But I can confirm that no serving British military personnel are presently engaged in foreign wars.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that slight extension of his previous rather noncommittal Answer. Will he ask his right honourable and learned friend to brief him a little more on the subject? Is he aware that both the Foreign Secretary and the Minister of State in another place have virtually admitted that British blow-pipe ground-to-air missiles are being supplied to the rebels in Afghanistan? Is he aware that it is known by which company the weapons are made—that is by Short's? Is he aware that the routes by which they arrive in Afghanistan are known? Is he aware that it is a case of almost everybody knowing that these missiles are being supplied to the rebels—
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, perhaps I may say three more words—to the rebels—
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, let me finish the sentence.
§ Lord Jenkins of Putney—to the rebels in Afghanistan except the Minister?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I rest on my earlier remark. Successive administrations have not felt obliged to answer questions of this kind.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the people described in the Question as "fundamentalist counter-revolutionaries" are in the eyes of many of us patriotic citizens seeking to defend their country against Russian aggression?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I must say that I very much agree with my noble friend. It is quite astonishing that anyone should be alarmed or dismayed by the efforts of the Afghan people to defend themselves against the onslaught of a well-equipped and sophisticated modern Soviet army.
§ Lord ChalfontMy Lords, will the Minister confirm that there are nearly 120,000 Soviet troops in Afghanistan, including 10,000 troops of the MVD and the KGB? Will he also confirm that "fundamentalist counter-revolutionaries" is a phrase used by the Soviet Union to describe the Mujahideen?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right.
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, if the so-called counter-revolutionary fundamentalists had been fighting against the Americans or Her Majesty's Government, is it not almost certain that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, would have described them as freedom fighters?
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, may I move to a slightly more peaceful scene, namely, the United Nations, and ask the noble Lord what attitude Her Majesty's Government will represent there on 9th November when there is to be a debate on Afghanistan? Will Her Majesty's Government be pressing for a negotiated settlement and the withdrawal of all foreign troops from the soil of Afghanistan?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government will be represented at the debate on 9th or 10th November. The noble Lord will be aware in due course of what is proposed to be said on that occasion.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that these terrible events—where people do not decide issues by the ballot box but by slaying and killing—are to be deplored? Will he agree that the proposition that Britain should always help to bring warring sides together is much to be preferred to having our name linked with countries which welcome civil wars so that they can sell the warring sides arms to butcher and kill each other?
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, we are in danger of straying extremely wide of the Question on the Order Paper which is concerned with export of armaments.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that one man's terrorist is another man's 779 counter-revolutionary? It is a case of where one stands in the matter. Will he consider this point? Is he aware that we recognise the Government of Afghanistan and that in the circumstances we are apparently supplying weapons to people who are fighting against their government? Is he aware that one cannot address oneself to the fundamentals of the case until the Government admit what they are doing? If they will admit that, we can discuss the question as to whether it is right or wrong.
§ Lord GlenarthurMy Lords, I return to what I said earlier. Successive administrations have not commented on matters of this kind.
The Earl of HalsburyMy Lords, have we not had enough of this? Can we not pass to the next Question?