§ 3.2 p.m.
§ Lord RodneyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they are contemplating in view of the growing public concern arising out of the recent "Panorama" programme featuring the Cult of Scientology.
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, we think that the "Panorama" programme illustrated again the unpleasant and ludicrous character of Scientology. We are, however, aware of no particular need to take action over the British part of the organisation at this stage.
§ Lord RodneyMy Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend for that Answer which I do not find satisfactory. I would not go so far as describing Scientology as "ludicrous". It is much more serious than that. In view of the fact that this cult and others are international and cross national frontiers, will Her Majesty's Government consider liaising with other governments on the possibility of controlling and containing these organisations?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I think that my noble friend suggests that there must be international co-operation when there is an allegation of criminal behaviour. Of course I support him in that; criminal behaviour is a matter for the police.
§ Lord MishconMy Lords, while the question of civil liberties may arise in regard to questions of this kind, perhaps I may ask this question. Can the noble Earl assure the House that there is no question of Scientology, or any allied cause, achieving charitable status in this country? If that is not the position have the Government any plans to alter the charity law in order to make such a position impossible?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon; but there must always be a balance between freedom of expression and practice within the law on the one hand the need to safeguard from abuse the basic freedom of members of society on the other. We shall continue to watch that position with care. With regard to his second point on charitable status, I confirm that Scientology is not a charity, and that we have no proposals to change the position.
§ Lord DenningMy Lords, is the Minister aware that there are over 100 such religious cults operating in this country, coming mostly from America? They exercise the most pernicious influence on our society, especially on family life, separating children from parents and making huge profits and fortunes for their founders. In these circumstances, is it not high time that there should be legislation to curb their activities, for example, by a licensing system under which they could be struck off if guilty of practices harmful to the state?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I, and I am sure the House, are well aware of the concern of the noble and learned Lord in this matter, and of his great knowledge in respect of it. He used the word "religious"; but I should put that word in inverted commas after watching the "Panorama" programme, where there seemed to be no qualification to claim that title. The noble and learned Lord also used the word "children". So far as we can detect, Scientology has been careful not to attract children, because if it did it would break the law and there would be a criminal 544 offence where action must be taken. It appears to be concentrating upon obtaining money and members from the older generation.
§ Lord SandysMy Lords, bearing in mind the shadowy and nebulous nature of cults, will Her Majesty's Government consider maintaining so far as possible a register of the cults which are known to the Home Office in order to carry out that suggestion?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I hope that we in the Home Office are aware of most of the cults operating in this country and we shall watch the position. However, if there is an allegation of criminal behaviour, I repeat that action will be taken by the police in the usual way.