Health Education Council Report (Hansard, 30 March 1987)

§ Lord Stallard
My Lord, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, it has already been published.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that because of her department's rather clumsy attempts to stifle that report, all available copies have now been sold? Will the new authority take over the report and ensure its widest possible distribution? In the meantime, would she care to comment on the report's conclusions that the health gap between the rich and the poor has widened under the present Government and that because of material deprivation all major killer diseases now affect the poor more than the rich?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, health differences among different groups in our society are of long standing. They have been a feature of life under governments of both parties. By increasing support for the NHS we have been able to see that new treatments and techniques are available to all sections of the 357 country. By our health education campaign we are determined that all those groups, particularly the less well off, should have the information that they need to protect their health. We have made considerable progress in ironing out inequalities among the regions through RAWP, which the Government inherited.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, it is true that the report has been published. I have it in my hands. I have no reason to believe that the Government tried to impede it. Is the noble Baroness aware that the Library was able to obtain only one copy and had to make three further photocopies and that the Printed Paper Office has had the same experience? In view of the impending demise of the Health Education Council at the end of this month, can the noble Baroness assure the House that proper arrangements will be made for the report to continue to be available after its demise? Will the new special health authority take the report on board? We shall be interested to know what the report's availability will be.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, let me make it clear that neither Ministers nor anyone else in the department exerted pressure to cancel the press conference, let alone to suppress the report. As the chairman has made absolutely clear, the decision to postpone the press conference was entirely his. His reason, as he has also made clear, was that the council had never properly discussed the report's commissioning and had not even been informed of its publication and the calling of a press conference in its name. The Government have great confidence in Sir Brian Bailey and his two vice-chairmen. Considering that the council has not had a chance to look at the report and that certainly Ministers have not, despite the fact that I have had a copy since this morning, it is impossible for me to say what will happen to it.

Lord Morris
My Lords, can my noble friend reconcile these reports of material deprivation with this fact? It is well-established that the vast majority of people enjoy a standard of living far in excess of that dreamt of as little as 40 years ago? Indeed, over 90 per cent. of households own at least one colour television set?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, experts agree that people can help themselves and their families to stay healthy by making simple changes to the way that they live. A good diet and a healthy lifestyle do not depend upon a high income. In fact, smoking and drinking cost money.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, while of course accepting the Minister's words that no Minister was involved in this, does she accept that the decision that there should not be a press conference concerning the document was taken by Sir Brian Bailey, appointed by the Minister? He said that the report would be electoral dynamite. If the noble Baroness has read the report, she will be aware that it shows that the gap between rich and poor, not only in terms of money but of health, has substantially increased in the last few years. That is why it would be political dynamite. Will further copies be made available so that the public may read the truth?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I cannot answer about the further copies. That matter is not in my hands. However, studies show that inequalities in health have widened since the 1950s. They have widened under Labour governments as well as Conservative governments. But the main point is that the health of everyone has been improving.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, is the Minister aware that this report, like the Black Report in 1980, stresses the importance of what children eat and how this influences their future health? Will she agree therefore that the removal of nutritional standards previously enforced with regard to school meals, the fact that many children are no longer eligible for free school meals and the fact that the free school meals service is disintegrating might have a very great effect on the health of future generations?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, to prescribe nutrition standards for school meals would be meaningless unless we can also force school children to eat everything that is provided. Prescribing set nutritional standards would lead to waste on a scale that occurred in the past when such standards were prescribed by law.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, as the Minister has not had an opportunity to study the report and as noble Lords obviously have difficulty in finding copies, will my noble friend agree that it would perhaps be preferable not to debate it—although it is a very important report—in great detail at this moment?

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, publish it!

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, despite that, I think the House has the right to ask questions.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the situation is quite unsatisfactory? I regret to say too that her replies have not been satisfactory. Is she aware that we have a very important debate on Wednesday on the National Health Service? The report is very relevant to that debate. Can the noble Baroness say whether the new authority will publish the report? Can she make enquiries to make sure that it will be published? Can she also say whether or not the Government agree with the important recommendations of the report?
Has the noble Baroness read the report carefully herself? Is she able to make a comment on what is unquestionably one of the most significant and important reports on health in recent years?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, as I said, the report has been published. It is not for me to say whether extra copies will be made. That is up to the new health authority. It would be quite wrong for me to comment on the contents of the report, which I have just seen for only a few minutes.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, will the Minister not agree that unless this report is published, we are all bound to assume that there are things which the Government do notwish the public to see? Would that 359 not be extremely damaging both to the Government and to the Opposition?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, it has been published.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the report contains reference to regional differences in health standards and that between 1979 and 1983 death rates were highest in Scotland, followed by the North, and the North-West? Will the Minister accept, in order that the economies of these areas might be improved, that it is unwise to cut by 50 per cent. regional development funds?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, that is a little wide of the Question. If the noble Lord will put down a Question to that effect, I shall be delighted to give it the full attention that it deserves.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, will the Minister agree with this? There is a Question on the Order Paper to which the Minister is replying concerning this publication. Is it not disturbing that she has not read it? Is she aware that now that it is a special health authority appointed by the Secretary of State, she and her colleagues have the authority and the right to require that further copies should be made available?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the new health education authority will work within the framework of ministerial accountability to Parliament and of a policy to increase the vigour and effectiveness of action through the NHS to prevent illness and to promote good health. It is not, however, expected to acquiesce in its employees' commissioning and publishing major documents without properly involving or informing the chairman and members of the authority.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, I understand that we are talking about the health of the nation. We have heard only recently that one of the biggest problems facing Britain today is that there are thousands of empty beds as a result of a shortage of nurses who are now going abroad. Can the Minister say whether this is a matter on which her Government will take action in order to overcome some of the problems?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will ask the same question during Wednesday's debate.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, since the Health Education Council dies on 31st March and the new body does not come into being until 1st April, which is the day of the debate in your Lordships' House, will the noble Baroness give an undertaking that sufficient copies will be available for the purpose of the debate in your Lordships' House?

§ The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw)
My Lords, perhaps it would be reasonable for me to say that I shall look into the whole question of the status of this report. There is to be a debate in your Lordships' House on Wednesday. If it is proper and in accordance with precedent concerning other 360 reports that there should be more copies available, I shall make sure that there are.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, the House is extremely grateful to the noble Viscount.

§ Lord Diamond
My Lords, there is one further question, however. The Minister has stated that there is authority for her comment that the gap between rich and poor in terms of health has been widening since the mid-1950s. Will she be good enough to put in the Library before Wednesday a statement of the authorities on which she relies?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, yes.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, will the noble Baroness accept that I, too, am grateful to the noble Viscount for his assurance that copies will be made available for the debate—

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, I must make my position absolutely clear. I have only the power to see what the position is and to do everything I can to make sure that they are available. I can go no further than that.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, I accept that correction from the noble Viscount. Is the noble Baroness also aware that her replies have been extremely disappointing? Her attempts to "rubbish" this very important and well-researched document cannot disguise the fact that there is now an indisputable, direct connection between the Government's economic policies and the deterioration of the National Health Service and the nation's health.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, perhaps it would be a good idea if I gave a few facts. Overall, health in the United Kingdom has improved steadily. Life expectancy continues to rise. Infant mortality has fallen by one-third since 1979. Improvements like these have been felt among all groups. They reflect the increased resources that we have put into the health service, from £7.75 billion in 1978–1979 to nearly £20 billion next year. They also reflect the improved treatment which is offered and the increasing number of patients who have been cared for.