§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will try to ensure that a representative of NATO attends meetings between the Foreign Secretaries of the USA and the USSR on arms control.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I am bound to say that from a Conservative Government, and on the greatest issue facing mankind, that is a short, abrupt and not particularly helpful Answer. Is not the noble Baroness aware, in so far as it was a British Government who created NATO, that only last week Mr. Gorbachev said that he would welcome discussions not only between his country and USA but with representatives of NATO and the Warsaw Pact? As Great Britain is the senior member of the European side of the NATO arrangement, would it not be right for our Government to see that Britain has a voice as well on this, the greatest issue of our day?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the fact is that a bilateral meeting is a bilateral meeting; and the meeting is between representatives of the USA and the USSR. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation provides the means by which the United States and its allies can hold regular consultations on arms control and other matters.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that there is nothing bilateral about the possibility of a nuclear war?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, this is too important a matter to make jokes about. I am not making jokes; I am setting out the position as it is.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, does not the noble Baroness agree that the Question is about arms control? Is she aware that there has been no arms control but only talk about arms control? Does not the noble Baroness recall that the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, reminded us yesterday that there are 45,000 nuclear weapons situated throughout the world doing a job which could be done by 45? Will the noble Baroness consider arms reduction instead of arms control?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, if the noble Lord had listened to my two speeches yesterday afternoon in the 288 important debate introduced by my noble friend Lord Home, he would know that I said that for the first-time we are actually talking about reductions in arms.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, the Soviet Defence Ministry spokesman is reported as saying that if agreement on medium and short range weapons is achieved,
independent defence capabilities will have to join in as well.Can the noble Baroness say what the reaction of Her Majesty's Government is to that?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, it is a little difficult to comment on a report which I have not seen for myself, but we have welcomed the statement of Mr. Gorbachev in introducing again the idea of the zero option and made the point that he was not including the independent nuclear deterrent of Great Britain and France.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, is it not a fact that it can only be good for the governments of America and of Russia to be talking, even if only about arms control? The less we say, so that they can get on with reaching an agreement, the better.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I agree with the noble Lord.
§ Lord GladwynMy Lords, does not the noble Baroness agree that a representative of NATO presumably could only be the noble Lord, Lord Carrington? Would it not put the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, in an impossible position if he attended these meetings in the absence of any complete unanimity on arms control by any representative of NATO?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I would not wish in any sense to speak for my noble friend Lord Carrington. Suffice it to say that the consultations that take place do so within NATO. The discussions on arms control take place between representatives of the United States and the Soviet Union.
§ Lord ChalfontMy Lords, does not the noble Baroness agree that NATO, as a military defence alliance, is a most inappropriate body to be represented at arms control and disarmament discussions? Does not she further agree that if it were represented there would also be representation from the Warsaw Pact? As the Warsaw Pact would be representing the Russian point of view, would not this be somewhat unbalanced?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the noble Lord makes two very good points.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, does not the noble Baroness agree that we must not keep to the strategies which have produced nothing over the past 20 years? With the new attitude of the Soviet Union, there is now a possibility of a breakthrough. Does she not agree that Britain, with its great experience, can encourage that and make a worthwhile contribution to discussions on defence, as I indicated in my Question?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, as I made quite plain in yesterday afternoon's debate, we now have a new situation in which we are actually talking about a possible reduction in armaments. Our contribution is through the influence which we bring to bear on the Americans, who are party to these negotiations. We shall make our influence felt wherever it is possible to do that.
§ Lord Nugent of GuildfordMy Lords, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is about to go to Moscow to talk to Mr. Gorbachev, is not that the best possible answer that the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, could have to his Question?
§ Baroness YoungYes, my Lords. My noble friend makes a good point.