§ 2.53 p.m.
§ Lord FletcherMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will endorse the report of the Committee under the chairmanship of Sir Barney Hayhoe on the future of Birkbeck College which advocated a new structure for this institution; and in particular whether, as a matter of urgency, they will take steps to exempt part-time students from university fees in all cases where full-time students are exempt.
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, the Government welcome the initiative by the college in commissioning the report, which is for the college to consider in the first instance. As to fees for part-time students, the issue is not one of exemption but of how these are to be met. This will be considered in the context of the current comprehensive review of all aspects of financial support for students studying at first degree or equivalent level.
§ Lord FletcherMy Lords, failing the granting of total exemption from university fees for part-time students, does the noble Baroness agree that there is at any rate a strong case for granting tax relief on university fees paid by part-time students? In this connection will she bear in mind the very considerable contribution to the national economy and welfare that has been made over the years by part-time students?
§ Baroness HooperYes, my Lords. We are aware of and we welcome the contribution made by a college such as Birkbeck. We believe that exemption from fees is a matter for the college and the student. As I have said, the issue here is how the college can be recompensed in respect of students who cannot pay their fees. That is why the question comes under the comprehensive review of student support of my honourable friend Mr. Walden which is currently under way.
§ Lord GrimondMy Lords, may I congratulate the Government on, as I understand it, giving an assurance that part-time students and particularly those at Birkbeck will not be penalised? Are we to 8 understand that they definitely intend to put part-time students on as good a basis as full-time students? Will they agree that they get extremely good value, to put it at its lowest, from part-time students and from Birkbeck College, and that it is much cheaper to educate them there than it is to educate full-time students?
§ Baroness HooperIndeed, my Lords, and we have always acknowledged that. That is why the report was commissioned by the college. After consideration by the college in consultation with London University, and thereafter with the University Grants Committee, the recommendations of the report will be taken into account in future policies.
§ Baroness SeearMy Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that there is a strong case for giving special encouragement to part-time students? Not only do they make better use of facilities, as has already been said, but they do so under great pressure and in difficult circumstances, and are therefore a self-selected sample of very determined people who should be encouraged and not discouraged.
§ Baroness HooperYes, indeed, my Lords. The review which has been initiated by my honourable friend will take all views into account and will lead to the publication of proposals in the form of a consultative document. This is a most important subject and one on which the widest consultations will be taken.
§ Baroness LockwoodMy Lords, in response to my noble friend Lord Fletcher, the Minister said that this is not a question of exemption but of how fees are to be met. Can she explain what she means by that? Does it mean that the Government are prepared to accept responsibility for paying the fees of part-time students who at the present time are paying them themselves out of taxed income?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, as I have tried to explain, the allotment of finance is made by the University Grants Committee, which does not identify separately the different elements in block grant to institutions. In the case of Birkbeck, this is a matter for London University. The block grant to London University for 1987–88 was £248.1 million, with £238.81 million in 1986–87. This represents a percentage increase of 3.9 per cent. compared with the Great Britain average of 3.2 per cent.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, is there not a danger that we are playing with words here? Will the noble Baroness not accept that in the past 12 months Birkbeck has been under exceptional financial strain and exceptional financial threat? Under those circumstances, to quibble over whether the word "exempt" is the right one is not appropriate. Surely part-time students should be entitled to mandatory grants for their tuition in the same way as full-time students.
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, it sounds to me as though noble Lords opposite are advocating more centralisation of funding. As I have explained, the 9 University Grants Committee is an intermediate body. In its grant allocations for 1986–87 the committee originally adopted a standard weighting of 0.5 for part-time students at all universities. To show that it is possible to make changes, following representations, and about Birkbeck in the main, the committee reverted to the formula used in previous years in calculating the element of block grant attributable to Birkbeck for 1986–87. For 1987–88 and the following two years Birkbeck is being treated as a special factor in the committee's resource allocations procedure to allow for the completion of various inquiries now taking place. In due course the committee will be discussing with the university the funding of the college in the longer term. I believe that the Government are taking this very seriously.
§ Lord DiamondWill the noble Baroness say whether the comparison which she was good enough to give the House is in real terms or in cash terms? If it is the latter, can she tell us what the comparison is in real terms?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, I believe it is in real terms.
§ Lord FletcherMy Lords, will the Minister acknowledge that it is not good enough to shuffle off the Government's responsibility onto either the University Grants Committee or any other body? Surely he should realise that it is the responsibility of government to ensure that justice is done to these hard-working, part-time students. The Government can only discharge their obligation by giving them either tax relief or total exemption from university fees.
§ Baroness HooperYes, my Lords. Perhaps I should have acknowledged earlier that the idea of tax relief is an interesting one. However, I must repeat that, in addition to the review just completed by my right honourable friend Sir Barney Hayhoe and that of my honourable friend Mr. Walden which is under way, there is a review by Professor Dorothy Wedderburn on the university's whole policy of continuing education. An examination will take place by the university of the feasibility and merits of some sharing of resources between Birkbeck and University College. Therefore, a very full inquiry has been initiated which I believe is largely as a result of Questions in this House.
§ Baroness LockwoodMy Lords, can the Minister tell the House when the consultative document will be available? Is she aware that if it is not available in the very near future some of these institutions may be bankrupt before it is?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, as I think I mentioned earlier, the review will lead to publication of proposals in the form of a consultative document, but I cannot say whether that will be next week or the week after. The research will he completed as speedily as possible because it is recognised that the situation is urgent.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, will the noble Baroness recognise that concerns have been expressed this afternoon from a number of quarters in 10 the House? Will she be good enough to draw the attention of her honourable friend to those concerns to see whether anything can be done to reach a speedy conclusion? I ask her to recognise that if nothing is done we shall be forced to return to the matter.
§ Baroness HooperYes, my Lords.
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House—
§ Lord AnnanMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Davidson. I was expecting the noble Baroness to reply before I asked my question, which is simply this. Does she accept that no university in the land has done more than the University of London to try to rationalise its resources? Five colleges have been amalgamated with other colleges. Rationalisations of this kind—such as the recommendations in the Hayhoe Report to which the noble Lord, Lord Fletcher referred—cannot be implemented properly unless the Government make some special grant. That is due to the fact that tenure makes university finance so extraordinarily inflexible. I shall not ask the noble Baroness a question on tenure, but I ask her to bear that in mind.
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, I will bear that in mind. I assure your Lordships that the views expressed will be brought to the attention of my honourable friend.