§ 3.2 p.m.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many prosecutions in respect of Sunday opening have been launched against the proprietors of shops since 30th June 1986, how many of these have resulted in convictions, and how many are awaiting a hearing.
The Minister of State, Home Office (The Earl of Caithness)My Lords, this information will not be fully available centrally until later in the year and will be published as usual as part of the criminal statistics in September or October.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that singularly informative reply. Are the Government taking any steps to find out the extent to which the largely unenforceable present law is attempted to be enforced?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, it is for the police to report to the Home Office the statistics for offences against the Sunday trading laws. As soon as we have them and are able to complete the criminal statistics they will be published.
§ Lord GrimondMy Lords, would not the Government agree that the present state of the law regarding Sunday trading is, first, putting a totally unfair burden on the police; and, secondly, bringing the law into total disrepute because it is wholly illogical and it is quite differently administered in different parts of the country?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I echo the noble Lord's sentiments. That is why we introduced a Bill which unfortunately did not proceed beyond Second Reading.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, have there been any prosecutions? If I may say so, it was all rather wrapped up in the Minister's Answer.
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I cannot tell the noble and learned Lord the details that he would like until we have them before us; but I am sure that the full light will be revealed in September or October.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, I merely asked if there had been any. Perhaps there has been none.
Lord ChelwoodMy Lords, with the law broken on such a widespread national scale, are prosecutions just left to chance or are there some guidelines?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, the question of whether prosecutions are instituted is up to the local authority.
§ Lord AiredaleMy Lords, are the Government prepared to leave benches of magistrates permanently in jeopardy of having to try a case brought by a zealous local authority against a cathedral book shop for selling a Bible on a Sunday?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, if the Liberal Party had given overwhelming support to the Government's proposals last year, we would not be in this state now.
§ Lord RochesterMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that many of us, who, for various reasons, opposed the Sunday trading Bill in the form in which it was presented to the House last year, nevertheless accept that there is a need for the law in its present form to be tidied up?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, if the party opposite is as divided as it always is, I can only refer the noble Lord to the fact that it divided on Second Reading against the Bill.
§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, if the Minister will insist on choosing this opportunity to make a wholly unnecessary, highly regrettable—
§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that this Bill reached people's very sensitive feelings and their religious feelings and it was thought proper therefore, throughout the Alliance, for individual conscience to have the final say?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I am afraid that I do not know what the Whipping arrangements for that Party were in the other place.
§ Viscount BrentfordMy Lords, returning to the question of figures on enforcement, is my noble friend aware that The British Hardware Federation recently carried out a survey of 360 DIY shops on a Sunday and found that no fewer than 260 were open illegally?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, if they were open there is sufficient power under the 1950 Act, as my noble friend will be aware, for the local authority to take action if it so wishes.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, is it part of the Government's policy, if they cannot get their way in Parliament, to instruct the police and others to ignore the law?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I fear that the noble Lord misheard me. It is not up to the Government; it is up to local authorities in this instance.
Lord WinstanleyMy Lords, if it is proper and recommended, as it has been, that Members of these Benches should vote according to their conscience on the matter of the Shops Bill, is it not equally proper that the prosecuting authorities should be left to operate their consciences as well for a time?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, so far as I am aware, the local authorities are operating in the way that they feel is right.