Military Training Land (Hansard, 10 March 1987)

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)
I regret that this document is classified and cannot therefore be published.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. May I remind him that his department is using this document extensively but is not allowing people raising objections—both the public and elected representatives—access to it, and he has already stated that it is classified? Does he not think that this is unfair?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am not sure in what circumstances the noble Lord thinks that the document is being used in a situation which he would deplore. I know of no such circumstance. But if there is such a circumstance and he can tell me about it, then I shall be happy to look into it.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, will the noble Lord accept that there is widespread concern in the county of Devonshire that further encroachment is to be made upon the national park in Dartmoor for the use of the military? Can he make an announcement to allay this anxiety?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, although we do all that we can to make the best possible use of our existing training areas, current land holdings simply do not 935 meet all the Army's training needs. The significant increase in the numbers requiring to use the training areas in the United Kingdom, the increased range in safety areas required for modern weapons and the need for operational training for both regular and reserve forces all compete for the limited amount of space in our existing training areas. I am afraid that that means we shall have to continue to train over Dartmoor as far ahead as I can foresee.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Baron report is bound to be of considerable importance to conservation interests, not only in the county of Devonshire but in other counties where the national parks lie, because the training land in question is largely in our upland areas? Will he at least give the House the assurance that there will be close and effective consultation between his department and the Department of the Environment when this report is considered?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that the consultation that he is seeking takes place on a regular and continuing basis. Indeed, I have been responsible for quite a bit of it in recent times, although now a different Minister is responsible. We take our responsibilities very seriously in so far as preserving the environment on the land over which we train. In many cases we are told that the presence of the military is a positive benefit to the environment.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister how he can have negotiations with another department on a classified document.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am sorry to have to explain to the noble Lord that classified documents are available to other departments but not to the noble Lord.

§ Lord Irving of Dartford
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that my noble friend is claiming that people making a legitimate request are being resisted by the quotation of criteria from a document to which they have no access? Will he indicate whether that is so and can he also look to see whether the document is being used in that way?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that the document is not being used in that way, because it does not contain any criteria.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, can we have an assurance that a copy has not already gone to the BBC and that we shall not have a programme soon?

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, I should like to ask the Minister whether he would be surprised to learn that I have been invited to go across to the Ministry of Defence to read the document. It would be available to me to read there but it is not available to local councillors or members of the public.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am not aware that the noble Lord has seen a copy of the document.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, I said I had been invited to read it

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, if the noble Lord has been invited to see the document he will first have to be authorised to receive classified information, and that I do not think has happened yet.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is a good deal of interest in Wales concerning this document? Will he remind the House of the terms of reference of the Baron Committee? Will the Minister further agree that, although it may be necessary to classify parts of the document, most of it could be declassified without any risk at all?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, there was no committee set up for this purpose. Baron was a comparatively junior officer in the British Army who conducted the study for the benefit of his senior officers and not for further dissemination.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, will the noble Lord say that at some point in either the near or distant future this very important report will be available to elected representatives in local authorities, to Members of Parliament and to Members of this House?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I regret that I can give no such assurance.