Community Charge (Hansard, 30 June 1987)

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Sanderson of Bowden)
My Lords, the introduction of the community charge in Scotland represents part of a reform applying to the whole of Great Britain. The timetable for implementation is provided in the Abolition of Domestic Rates Etc. (Scotland) Act 1987. This was thoroughly discussed and approved by Parliament in the last Session and the Government propose to adhere to it.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, may I congratulate the Minister on his promotion to the Front Bench and promise him an interesting time? May I also ask two questions? Would the Minister agree that while this matter was debated in the House, it was also debated in Scotland during the election and overwhelmingly rejected? Secondly, may I ask whether his attention has been drawn to speeches made in another place yesterday? Can I have an assurance that in the event of a rejection of the English legislation, or of any substantial amendment to that legislation, there would be second thoughts about the poll tax in Scotland?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, as regards the debate which took place during the general election in Scotland, I think your Lordships will agree that it would be absurd to suggest that the election in Scotland was fought on the basis of the community charge alone, or of any other single issue.
Referring to the noble Lord's second question concerning what happens with the English and Welsh legislation, I am confident that the fundamentals of the reform already enacted for Scotland will in due course apply to England and Wales. However, if refinements are made to the proposals we will of course consider whether any parallel changes need to be made to the Abolition of Domestic Rates Etc. (Scotland) Act.

§ Lord Ross of Marnock
My Lords, bearing in mind that the Government cannot say they were not warned about what was going to happen in Scotland, will he take heed of that warning? The Government 120 lost more than half their Members; they lost three Ministers, including the Minister who piloted the Bill through the Commons. Are we to understand that they are not thinking about it at all? Indeed, they should be thinking about whether they have a mandate to introduce any legislation for Scotland at the present time. They have even had to rope in an Englishman to be the Scottish Whip.

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, that question from the noble Lord, Lord Ross, points, I think, to the fact that he recognises that the Conservative Party did have a problem in the general election north of the Border. However, I should like to say to him, with all humility, that he and his Welsh colleagues made it possible for his English colleagues and himself to sit in Cabinet in 1964 and 1974 to the delight of his political friends in the United Kingdom and to the frustration of English Conservative Members of Parliament who were in the majority at that time in England.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, should not those who at this stage are so critical of the community charge bring forward a viable alternative, since they are all people who have said that the present situation ought not to be allowed to continue. To use it as an excuse for saying that it affected the results of a general election is nonsense.

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. We discussed this matter at great length—there were 10 full days of it—in this House and there was unanimous agreement between the Alliance and the Government Benches that what we were about was the abolition of a discredited property tax.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, I cannot allow the Minister to get away with the idea that we supported the community charge. Is he not aware that these Benches have always put forward the idea of a local income tax instead? There was no such support.

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, perhaps I may say to the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, that that was not my intention at all. I said that both the Alliance and the Government Benches were determined to get rid of a discredited property tax.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I join in congratulating the Minister on his rather speedy promotion to the Front Bench. Is he not aware of the grave reservations expressed about this form of tax by a former Secretary of State for the Environment, his right honourable friend, Mr. Michael Heseltine, and by a former Minister of that Department, Sir George Young? Bearing in mind that two such prominent members of the Conservative Party are expressing grave reservations and that they will have the support of a substantial number of their own people, is it not illogical and inconsistent that a Bill brought before another place and your Lordships' House and which will be substantially amended will leave Scotland completely at a disadvantage? Is this not the height of folly and the worst case of hybridity that we have had in this House within living memory?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for his kind good wishes in the job that I am undertaking. If he had listened to what I said earlier on he would know that we shall of course note what happens when the English and Welsh Bill comes before your Lordships' House and another place. The Government have made it clear that their commitment is to securing the introduction of this reform. However, as I have said— and I think I ought to repeat it—if refinements are to be made to the proposals we shall consider them in relation to the Scottish Act if and when that is necessary.

§ Lord Galpern
My Lords, can the Minister say whether any representations have been received from officials of local government regarding the impossibility of introducing a change in the rating system by 1989?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has received the CoSLA representations. At the political level, local authorities in Scotland oppose the concept of a community charge. In many cases that is not new. However, the new system is the law of the land and it is quite wrong to suggest that local authorities in Scotland will not comply with the law.

§ Lord Galpern
My Lords, in that case will the Minister be prepared to provide the necessary additional staff in order to effect the change in the rating system?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I think that it is a matter for the local authorities themselves to come forward with their ideas at the appropriate time.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, finally may I ask whether the Minister is aware that the last time a poll tax was introduced in this country was in 1380 and that it was followed by the Peasants Revolt? Is the Minister not equally apprehensive about the application of this law which has been rejected by the people of Scotland at this tme?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I recall that when this Bill was being debated in this House the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe, was insistent that a local income tax was his choice and that of his party. But I have to point out that it was discussed thoroughly during the passage of the Bill. The local income tax which he suggested would neither be sufficiently perceptible nor provide a sufficiently wide tax base to achieve the accountability which the community charge will produce. Community charge rebates will ensure help for those who need it. I may say that I heard very little about rebates in the debate in Scotland during the general election.