Working Conditions: Statutory Protection (Hansard, 6 July 1987)

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Lord Young of Graffham)
My Lords, statutory protections on matters of pay and health and safety do not normally distinguish between full- and part-time workers, or between men and women. However, where some other protections are concerned some minimum qualification in terms of hours worked is necessary if employers are not to be prevented by excessive regulation from running their businesses effectively and thus creating jobs.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply so far as it goes. 457 Is the Minister really content to leave the protection of vulnerable sectors of the workforce to so-called market forces? Is the Minister aware, for instance, that thousands of full-time workers get only a temporary contract of 12 weeks, and that this can go on indefinitely without them getting a permanent contract? Is he also aware that part-time employers working fewer than 16 hours a week can remain on a temporary contract until they complete five years of service? Does the Minister really think that arrangements of that kind are satisfactory, equitable and just?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I believe that the best protection we can give a worker today is a job, and the cases which the noble Lord has outlined show how restrictive even the existing legislation can be in the eyes of some employers. What we are concerned about is that we continue with a world in which 65 per cent. of those of working age are in paid employment. That is a matter on which to congratulate ourselves and not one for criticism because of lack of protection.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, can the noble Lord give us some examples of the restrictions that he would like to see taken away from the safety precautions, etc.?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
No, my Lords, because I am not suggesting that I would do that. But what I should not like to do is to go back to a form of repressive regime, the abolition of which I suspect helped to create the 1 million new jobs which we have seen since 1983.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, what plans has the Minister for extending employment rights, for instance, including pension rights, to part-time workers? In his original reply the Minister said that there is no differentiation; but I wonder whether he would care to comment on the situation that in many cases in the retail and distributive trades young people are being used as a pool of low-paid, casual and temporary labour. Surely there are categories of workers—and in my Question I mentioned the low paid and women—who are especially vulnerable in today's circumstances. Can the Minister help me on that aspect?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, wages councils exist in many of the industries covered by the distributive trades, and I really would require some evidence of the assertion which the noble Lord makes that there are such pools of low paid or young people acting in the way in which he suggests.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, with respect, the noble Lord is not dealing adequately with my noble friend's Question. Is he aware that my noble friend is referring to a section of the workforce who for various reasons are not being treated properly in relation to their conditions of work or their wages? I would not expect him to give us a final answer now. What he has done is to dismiss my noble friend's question as being of no account. It is a very important question and I would plead with the noble Lord to 458 look at this very carefully, and if necessary to write to my noble friend or to make a statement to the House later.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, may I just say that I do not accept the assertion that there are a number of people who are not being dealt with properly? We have wages councils whose job today in the number of industries they cover is to settle minimum hourly rates of pay, minimum overtime rates and the limit to be charged for accommodation. I hear from time to time from employers about difficulties in engaging people. I should like to have produced before your Lordships' House examples of these assertions that are made. If that is done, then I promise your Lordships that they will be dealt with.

§ Baroness Lockwood
My Lords, would the noble Lord, the Secretary of State, not agree that many women, in order to obtain the flexibility that might help them with their domestic commitments, have sacrificed jobs which contained protection, adequate pension rights and maternity rights and have now had to forfeit those? Would the noble Lord look at the conditions under which those women now work, with particular reference to those who do home work?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, of all women between the ages of 16 and 59 no fewer than 60 per cent. are in employment in this country. I believe that the only other country in the Community that has more women in employment is Denmark. That surely is a matter for congratulation. If about one-quarter of the women are in part-time employment, that is only because as more and more women go into work, many who are married look for only part-time employment.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, would the noble Lord, the Secretary of State, agree that apparently the Prince of Wales did not think that all working conditions are satisfactory?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I do not think that is a matter which is the subject of this Question, nor is it a matter which we should raise in your Lordships' House.

§ Lord Basnett
My Lords, the noble Lord has argued in defence of this situation that wages councils exist. Would he not accept that wages councils have been considerably weakened, both in their coverage and in the inspectorate which ensures that wages councils can do an adequate job?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I believe that wages councils today do an adequate job. They get the balance right between conditions which allow jobs to grow in the community and the necessary protections for those in employment. We have seen employment continue to grow. We still have unemployment today at 2,950,000. We shall be doing what we can to see that more jobs grow, not the other way.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, is the noble Lord satisfied about the enforceability of judgments of the industrial tribunals? There are cases of appalling failure to give effect to judgments of the tribunals in respect of underpaid workers.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I am informed that prosecutions in the past have been historically few, and in fact rarely reach double figures under any government. What is important is that we ensure that the effects of the wages councils' orders, in respect of the workers they cover, are known and that we maintain an inspectorate which maintains checks.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for what I believe he said. But may I be clear that he would be willing to receive a deputation led by myself of those outside who are convinced that the case I have made is correct and that there is evidence of widespread abuse? If that evidence is assembled, will the noble Lord be happy to receive the deputation?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I am quite sure that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Employment (who is primarily concerned with this matter) will be happy to receive any delegation that the noble Lord wishes to advance. But I asked for proof or evidence, not for a delegation. There have been many assertions from noble Lords opposite this afternoon making allegations about conditions and terms of employment. This requires some substantiation in some way or other.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, has the noble Lord seen the allegations or suggestions made by the Prince of Wales, to which my noble friend referred in her question?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
No, my Lords, I have not. I am very concerned with inner city matters and I suspect it would be better if this question was not dealt with in this way. It is very wide of the Question on the Order Paper.