Research Workers: Emigration (Hansard, 1 July 1987)

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Education and Science (Baroness Hooper)
My Lords, we welcome the report which refutes the myth of an exodus of scientific talent from Britain and we believe that the policies which the Government have adopted for higher education will encourage our best scientists to stay in this country. We have agreed a very substantial pay increase for academics with new arrangements for discretion to pay the best more: and our policy of selectivity and concentration will mean that outstanding people will increasingly be able to find the highest quality facilities for their work in the United Kingdom.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, I welcome what the Minister has said concerning the additional salaries for academics in higher education. However, I should like to ask whether she feels and thinks that the Government have gone far enough in this direction, and will such increases stop the brain drain as indicated in the report?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, we are by no means complacent about this subject. However, the pay award has only recently come into effect—in December 1986. As the Government's policies on selectivity and concentration become increasingly 251 effective, more of our outstanding scientists will have access to first rate facilities. The Government believe that those moves will strengthen our whole research effort through the ability to attract and retain good quality staff across a range of disciplines. However, we intend to study the report and see what further lessons can be drawn from it.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, would it not help to restrain the brain drain of high grade scientists and engineers if they did not have to contrast a tax rate of 60 per cent. on their higher earnings in this country with 28 per cent. in the United States?

§ Baroness Hooper
Yes, my Lords, that is obviously a consideration which the Government keep under review.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, surely the noble Baroness recognises that the brain drain had started long before the change in the tax system to which the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, referred? Therefore, that cannot be the reason.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, in terms of the fact that the brain drain has been going on for a long time, I can in fact quote the authors of the Royal Society's report in an article in Nature which pointed out that in the 1960s a high emigration rate coincided with what today would be considered a very high rate of real annual growth in Government expenditure on research. The figure of people emigrating in the 1960s was around 35 per cent. as far as concerns new PhDs as opposed to 9 per cent. today.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I appreciate that the noble Baroness was not in her place at the time yesterday afternoon, but I should like to ask if she has had an opportunity to read the devastating speech made by her noble friend Lord Beloff? The speech attacked the Department of Education and Science proposals for the contract funding of our universities. Will she agree that nothing can be more calculated to spread alarm and despondency among our academic research community than the proposals to which the noble Lord referred?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, I have had regard to the comments made by my noble friend and we will indeed be following that particular point when a question immediately related to that matter is on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that this is not entirely the responsibility of government? Is she aware that it is also the responsibility of industry and commerce? While fiscal policies generally in this Government are helpful in this direction, can further thought be directed to giving additional incentives to industry and commerce in order to build up their own research facilities? Such additional incentives can make attractive careers for our top grade scientists which we wish to see in this country.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, the Government are committed to maintaining and enhancing the quality of the science base in any way possible. It is interesting to note that the United Kingdom Government spend more on university and research council research as a proportion of gross domestic product, than some of our competitors, notably Japan and the United States. In those countries industry spends more on research than industry in the United Kingdom. The science budget has increased by 14 per cent., more than general inflation, since 1979. That is not a bad record.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, does the noble Baroness remember that on 19th February this year, her noble friend who sits next to her gave evidence of how well industry was doing in this country and that so many scientists were coming here for jobs? How does she relate that to the criticisms being made?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, the Royal Society report shows that the emigration figures of scientists and academics are almost equated by the immigration figures of people coming in from other countries.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, would it not have been better if on 19th February the noble Lord had given us not only the truth but the whole truth on the figures?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, I must say that there has been an enormous myth in this area which has been fanned by a number of perhaps improper questions, even in your Lordships' House. That is why we particularly welcome the results of the report, which actually provide sound facts which were not available before.

§ Baroness Lockwood
Is the Minister aware that Sir Mark Richmond, the chairman of the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals, in welcoming the report of the Royal Society said that the report also showed that scientists leave because there is no longer any reliable career structure in the academic world? He went on to say that this, combined with the universities' increasing reliance on short-term contracts, drives these talented men and women to countries where their expertise will be more greatly valued. Will she comment on that?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, I should like to repeat that the Government's intentions concerning the policy of selectivity and concentration of research—when they have had time to bite—will mean that outstanding people will increasingly remain in this country and find opportunities here.

§ Lord Beloff
My Lords, I think there is general agreement in the universities, in industry, in this House and on the part of the Government that we wish to see science talent retained in this country. Will the Minister accept that what we are complaining about is that the Government seem to take little account of the views of these other bodies as to how this desirable end is to be obtained? If the 253 Government were to consult rather more they might get things right.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, in my very short experience as a departmental Minister in the Department of Education and Science I have to say that the Government seem to be consulting non-stop about everything in sight. I take note of my noble friend's remarks, and I shall draw them to the attention of my honourable friend who is responsible for this particular area.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, in incurring the displeasure of the Government Chief Whip because we are going on a little longer, perhaps I may remind him that the reason we are going on a little longer is because we spent 15 minutes with Members taking the Oath and that has now been taken off Question Time—

Noble Lords
No, no!

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
—which many Back-Banchers value very much indeed. May I thank the Minister? We must remember that the report was published only yesterday, and the Government have not yet had time to study it properly. Perhaps I may ask the Minister when studying the report to take account not only of salaries but also of conditions and all the other matters concerned.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, yes indeed. In the arrangements that have been made and previously announced, the policies for higher education, it is the all-round picture that is being taken into account and not just pay structure.