§ 3.25 p.m.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what action has been taken or is proposed, jointly, by the European Community Transport Ministers and the European Commission arising from replies of the 10 European airlines concerned to the letter sent them by the Commission on 10th July: whether all replies have now been received and whether British Caledonian is the only airline to be removed from the Commission list: and whether they will explain the way in which the Commission and Transport Ministers co-operate in European transport matters.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)My Lords, the Commission's action against European airlines under Article 89 of the treaty is a matter between it and the airlines concerned. The Commission is acting under powers conferred on it by the treaty. It is not required to act jointly with the Council of Ministers, nor is it doing so. I understand, however, that British Caledonian is the only airline so far to have been removed from the Commission's list following receipt of a reply from the airline which it found satisfactory.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, I think the Minister has omitted to answer the last part of my Question. Will he be good enough to do so?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, if the noble Baroness studies the answer I gave she will see that I covered her point about whether the Council of Transport Ministers co-operate in this matter. The Commission is acting under its own autonomous powers conferred by Article 89 of the treaty. This is because the Council has so far failed to adopt an aviation competition regulation under Article 87 of the treaty. Such a regulation forms part of the package of measures now under discussion. When an Article 87 regulation has been adopted the Commission will act in accordance with it and thus under guidelines from the Council. This is the normal procedure in most other areas.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, is the Minister aware that it seems impossible to discover what is going on in this matter of air transport in the Community? The Minister does not know and we Members do not have a chance of asking anybody who seems to be aware of the position. Is he telling the House that there is no co-operation at all between the Commission and the Council of Transport Ministers on matters of mutual concern? Will he please tell me whether all replies have been received from the airlines by the Commission or does he not know?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I have attempted to explain how the Commission and the Transport Council operate together or separately—
§ Lord TordoffWhich, my Lords?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, if the noble Lord cares to read the reply I have already given, he will find the answer to that. As regards the answers from the airlines, this, as I have explained, is a matter between the Commission and the airlines. In broad terms I understand that the letters said that aspects of the relative inter-airline agreements were incompatible with Article 85. Most airlines asked for the original two-month deadline to be extended, and the Commission agreed to do this. However, even now a number of airlines have apparently not provided substantive replies.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, I shall not say I am sorry to pursue this matter. But does the Minister realise that the best way to get rid of me is to give me a decent answer? Does he appreciate, first, that I really am interested, and I think the House is interested, in this matter? Secondly, does he realise the impossibility of asking him a question because he says he does not know the answer? When we ask him about the Commission he does not know about it because it acts by itself, and when we ask him about the Council of Ministers and joint co-operation he says that there is none at all. Does the House wonder that we get nowhere on this matter of liberalising air transport?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I am well aware of the interest of the noble Baroness in this matter. I have at all stages attempted to give full and complete 1462 answers to her questions. However, I am not able to stand up here and answer for the Commission. The Commission is acting under its own powers under the treaty. Questions to the Commission can be raised by Members of the European Parliament. That perhaps would be one way, and the noble Baroness may care to arrange for questions to be put in that forum to the Commission. I did not say that the Commission and the Council of Ministers do not co-operate. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State met the Transport Commissioner earlier this week, and I am sure that matters appertaining to air transport competition will have been discussed at that meeting. As I said, the next meeting of the Council of Ministers is in March, and again I am sure that air transport will be on the agenda.
§ Baroness SeearMy Lords, does the Minister agree that if we had a decent electoral system for the European Parliament, no doubt the noble Baroness would be there herself to ask the questions? That would relieve him of a great problem.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraI think my Lords, that the noble Baroness strays somewhat from the Question on the Order Paper. Under the present electoral system there is no reason why the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, should not be elected.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, the Minister has referred to replies from nine of the 10 airlines. Can he say in which way the British Caledonian reply differed? When the matter was last raised by the noble Baroness on 15th January, he said he would write to her. Can he tell the House in which way the British Caledonian reply differed from the other nine?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, the only matter of concern to the Commission as regards British Caledonian was the arrangement on one particular route which it operated jointly with Alitalia. It satisfied the Commission as to the arrangements on that route and therefore it is in the clear, so to speak.
Lord MorrisMy Lords, can my noble friend tell me which of the airlines has not replied to the letter sent to them?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraNo, my Lords. I have already said that that is a matter for the Commission, but I can assure my noble friend and the House that British Airways is having full and useful discussions with the Commission.