The Royal Dockyards: Consultations (Hansard, 20 January 1987)

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State provided the trade unions on 4th December with a full paper setting out the Government's arguments for commercial management at both dockyards and naming Babcock Thorn Ltd. as our preferred contractor for the future operation of Rosyth dockyard. We agreed with the unions an extended timetable during which they would consult their members, and my right honourable friend has offered to meet the unions tomorrow before he takes a final decision on Rosyth.
We are today providing the unions with another paper informing them that we have the basis for a similar contract with Devonport Management Ltd. in respect of Devonport dockyard and I have placed a copy in the Library. We will now consider with the unions concerned the question of additional time for them to make representations to us on this latest paper.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. Has the Minister seen the report by Michael Harrison in The Independent today; and does he care to comment on it? Surely the decisions in respect of Rosyth and Plymouth should be seen together. Why has the Minister failed to satisfy the trade unions that he has taken seriously their deep concerns, not only in respect of their members' jobs but also in respect of the communities in which they live? When does the Secretary of State intend to discuss with the workforce the conditions and the redundancies that will fall upon them after privatisation? In view of the unsatisfactory state of consultations, will the Minister care to consider postponing the vesting date of April for at least six months?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that we have gone to the greatest lengths to ensure that consultation on this matter is properly and fully conducted. I myself have been involved in quite a large part of the consultation. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has seen the trade unions on at least one occasion, and is prepared to see them again tomorrow and intends to do so. Indeed, the 810 Navy Board, too, has recently seen the trade unions and had a useful exchange of views with them. I do not accept that we have been other than wholly proper in conducting this consultation; and we have done so with the utmost diligence. In the light of that consideration, there is no question of our postponing vesting day.

§ Lord Denning
My Lords, I thank the Ministry for the paper which I have only just had the opportunity to see. May I ask whether the Government are aware that this is but a preliminary decision, and that before a final decision is made there will have to be further consultation on the legal, economic and social matters concerned in accordance with the statute? Have steps been considered by which the retraining of the workforce and the replacement of the men in regard to the City of Plymouth can be safeguarded as far as possible?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I certainly agree that the paper which I have recently sent to the noble and learned Lord and others refers to our preferred contractor at Devonport, but we are certainly anxious to listen to whatever representations the trade unions wish to make about that contractor before signing a contract. As for training the workforce and matters of that kind to which the noble and learned Lord has referred, he will know that we have gone to considerable lengths to help those in Devonport and elsewhere who may be displaced in the fullness of time.

§ Lord Denning
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his answer and I hope all will go well.

Baroness Vickers
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he has sent the note to me? If he has, I have, unfortunately, not received it. Will consultations take place between the Government and the local consortium, whichever one is chosen, bearing in mind the serious consequences for Plymouth and the surrounding areas in regard to job losses? Is the noble Lord contemplating dealing with the training of apprentices with whoever takes over in the future?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, yes, I sent a copy of the letter to my noble friend. I sent it at the same time as the ones I sent to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, and the noble Lord, Lord Graham. I am sorry that my noble friend has not received it; and nor apparently has the noble Lord, Lord Graham. I confess that it was sent fairly recently and I am certain that it will arrive very shortly.
We are certainly taking into account all the factors to which my noble friend referred. On the point of job losses, I believe very strongly indeed that had we not embarked on some substantial change to the arrangements at both Devonport and Rosyth the job losses in prospect would have been very much greater than they are now.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, quite a number of noble Lords are a little confused as to the letter. Is the noble Lord referring to the letter that is now in the Library, or to some other letter?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am referring to a letter which I have recently sent to my noble friend Lady Vickers, to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, and to the noble Lord, Lord Graham, a copy of which is in the Library because I put it there myself.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, the Government have now announced which contractors they would prefer. If the trade unions tell the Government that they would prefer other contractors, what will the Government do?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, we shall take their views into account before reaching a final decision.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that he has advised the House that the future of the Rosyth dockyard was publicly announced today without proper consultation with the trade unions, which is due to take place tomorrow? When one looks at what, according to the Act, should take place as regards consultation, does the Minister really consider that he has consulted properly? Does not the Minister accept that he and the Government have reneged on their responsibility to consult meaningfully?

§ Lord Trefgarne
No, my Lords, I reject that allegation completely. We announced the preferred contractor for Rosyth six weeks or so ago—only the preferred contractor. We had not, of course, at that time reached any final decision and we have certainly not signed a contract. In that six weeks, until now, we have been conducting further consultations with the trade unions, in some of which I have been involved and in some my right honourable friend has been involved; and in some the gallant members of the Navy Board have been involved. We have not reached a final decision on the Rosyth matter. We are anxious to have a further meeting with the trade unions tomorrow on that matter—which we shall do—and we are now ready to listen to the trade unions' views on the question of the preferred contractor for Devonport. We have not yet reached a final decision on that, either.

Baroness Vickers
My Lords, I advise my noble friend the Minister that I have just received the letter to which he referred. Will he make a Statement on which we can question him in the future?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I did not for one moment imagine that there would not be more Questions on this matter in your Lordships' House.