Public Information: Simplified Language (Hansard, 19 January 1987)

§ Baroness Elliot of Harwood
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, action is going forward on a number of fronts. Government departments are continuing their review of forms. Led by the Management and Personnel Office, this initiative has resulted in the abolition of over 15,500 forms and the redesign of a further 21,000 forms since work began in 1982.
Both the Civil Service College and departments provide training courses aimed at improving the standard of written communication. Although there is no central control over the way departments issue public information, the Management and Personnel Office issues guidance such as the booklet issued in 1984 called The Word is … plain English and guidelines on the design and control of forms.

§ Baroness Elliot of Harwood
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister very much for that Answer, which is encouraging. However, does he not agree that there is a long way to go before the ordinary person can understand the way in which Bills are drafted, particularly Bills on the law and other subjects which have come before this House? I hope that the training will improve the way in which civil servants or others draft such Bills.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, as regards the drafting of Bills I ought to make two observations. First, in the view of the Government the drafting by parliamentary 712 counsel is exemplary. Secondly, the problem is that in legislation in both Houses we deal with some very complicated affairs.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, while we welcome the information that the Government are implementing the recommendations of the Rayner Committee on government forms, will the noble Lord say why the Government are refusing to meet the officers of the Plain English Campaign to discuss legislation? Does not he agree that there is a need to introduce a little plain English into legislation and into the large volume of amendments which the Government have a tendency to introduce at inconvenient moments? Will the Minister say whether or not arrangements can be made for these officials to meet government representatives on this important subject?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I confess that I was not aware of this particular problem. I must say that I am surprised. The Plain English Campaign had an exhibition in the House of Commons during the first half of last year which was sponsored by my right honourable friend the Minister for the Arts, Mr. Luce. I know that my right honourable friend has said in another place that he feels the campaign is doing a great deal to encourage the use of plain English. Indeed, I know of three government departments or organisations which have won plain English awards from the campaign and feel proud to have done so. I think what I must do is to draw the attention of my right honourable friend, who is responsible for the Management and Personnel Office, to what the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, said.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that his enthusiasm for the clarity of expression used by parliamentary counsel is not universally shared?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, of course, there are problems occasionally in Parliament. I can think of some plain English expressions which would not be parliamentary.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there will be very wide support for the Question put by my noble kinswoman Lady Elliot of Harwood and, indeed for the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn? Does not the noble Lord the Minister remember that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, said not so long ago in this House that he was completely stumped by the drafting of a Bill? If the noble and learned Lord is stumped, how can the public be expected to interpret such Bills? Will the noble Lord press on with making legislation more intelligible?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I am sure that both the Government and the advice which parliamentary counsel give to the Government will try to achieve that objective.

§ Lord Simon of Glaisdale
My Lords, does the noble Lord recollect that the Renton Committee reported widespread concern at the lack of simplicity and clarity in the drafting of Bills, and that very little has been done in pursuance of its recommendations?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I very rarely disagree with the noble and learned Lord, but certainly whenever there is a slight complication in the drafting of legislation in this House someone always refers to the report of my noble friend Lord Renton, and quite rightly so, too.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that, when he uses the word "exemplary" and applies it to the language contained in parliamentary Bills, he is earning for his own good nature and charity more respect than for this judgment? When he finds the time, I wonder whether he will inform the House about the awards which have been given to certain government departments for their use of plain English? One wonders what canons of judgment were employed and who were the judges. In fact, curiosity becomes quite overwhelming.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, so far as the first part of my noble friend's question is concerned, at the end of the day the legislation which is introduced into either House of Parliament is the responsibility of the Ministers in the departments concerned, and if it is the case, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, the noble Lord, Lord Grimond, and my noble friend suggest, that legislation is sometimes not as easy to understand as it might be, I must stick to the point that I have made; namely, that I believe that the advice that Ministers receive from parliamentary counsel is excellent and that if there are any faults then they are ours when we sit on a Front Bench in either House.
As regards the plain English awards, let me just say to the House that the Department of Employment won a plain English award last year for a leaflet called Opening More Doors. It was desigend to give useful information to young persons and unemployed people, and it also contained some absolutely excellent advice for disabled people. There is an excellent leaflet called A Visit from VAT Officers, in which the Customs and Excise reassures traders who are being inspected for the first time, and a plain English award was won for that. Thirdly, the Department of Health and Social Security has received—I think it was last year—one out of three awards for plain English for a leaflet called Help With the Cost of Glasses.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, while congratulating the Minister on the simplicity, conciseness and clarity of his own language at the Dispatch Box, will he encourage his colleagues to urge their own departments to word the replies given at Question Time with equal simplicity, conciseness and in plain and straightforward English?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, we shall try.

§ Lord Diamond
My Lords, quite apart from the question of parliamentary draftsmen, for whom, after years and years of experience with Finance and other Bills, I have nothing but praise, does the Minister think that there is something to be said for this House accepting the responsibility for maintaining the purity of English? Have the Government in mind any ideas for setting up a committee to consider the possibility of how we should best achieve that aim?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, that is a most interesting suggestion and I shall draw it to the attention of my noble friend the Leader of the House.