Marion Island: South African Activities (Hansard, 18 February 1987)

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, we are not at present in a position to reach definite conclusions about Marion Island. We shall however continue to watch developments.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, before addressing myself to that Answer, perhaps I may express what I believe will be felt in all parts of the House; that is, regret at the death of the noble Lord, Lord Crowther-Hunt. I speak personally about this matter because he was at Cambridge with me. He was not only the college goalkeeper but he spent a large part of his life attempting to broaden the intake into the universities. I believe that I am stating the view of the entire House in expressing our sadness to his family.
Turning to the Question, the noble Baroness has said that the Foreign Office is monitoring developments on Marion Island. Is she aware that Mr. John Wiley, the South African Minister responsible for that Island, first denied that there was any intention of building a runway and then admitted that there was such an intention? Is the Minister also aware that there have been reports from American scientists that both South African and Israeli military personnel have recently visited the Island? Is the Minister further aware—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, is the Minister further aware that it is now virtually established that a nuclear device was exploded very near that island in 1979 involving both South African and Israeli military personnel?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, we all greatly mourn the death of the noble Lord, Lord Crowther-Hunt. Concerning the questions the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, asked, the South African Government have asserted that they are considering the construction of an airstrip on Marion Island solely for civilian purposes; namely, fisheries protection, air-sea rescue and movement of scientific personnel based on the island. So far as concerns the Israelis, there has been no official Israeli comment. We understand that the State Department of the United States has answered questions by describing press reports as highly speculative. Referring to the question of the so-called test in 1979, despite much speculation there has been no conclusive evidence that a flash detected by a United States satellite in 1979 was a nuclear test, as was alleged at the time.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, I wonder whether the Leader of the House can say how it is possible to put this Question on the Order Paper and for the information to be given to the House when there does not appear to be any ministerial responsibility whatsoever for this island.

§ The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw)
My Lords, I shall look into what my noble friend has said and find out.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, perhaps the Minister would be good enough to tell noble Lords who may be ignorant on these matters where Marion Island is?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am quite sure that the noble Lord will recall that splendid programme "Yes, Minister" in which the Foreign Office was asked where the island was. I can show him on a map. It is just over 1,000 miles south-east of South Africa. I am sure that if he looks at a map that is where he will find it.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, can the noble Baroness confirm that the Antarctic Treaty will expire in 1991 and that Marion Island is within the area covered by that treaty? Is she able to say what action is being taken to prepare for the period after 1991? Perhaps she could indicate whether a body is to be set up by the United Nations or by the parties concerned in the area. Secondly, can she say what evidence there is of any action by the South African Government on Marion Island which would be inimical to the treaty and to any agreement or planning that may take place in anticipation of the very important period following the expiration of the treaty!

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the position concerning the Antarctic Treaty is not quite as the noble Lord has described it, because the treaty does not cover Marion Island. South Africa exercises sovereignty over Marion Island and therefore it does not provide a basis for raising any questions with regard to the signatories of the treaty. So far as concerns approaching the South Africans, we are ready to consider doing so if there are further developments which justify such an approach. But at the present time there is very little to go on, and in any case we have regularly urged the South African Government to adhere to the non-proliferation treaty, which should provide the necessary reassurance.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, as the United States evidently has a satellite which passes over that area of the globe, and bearing in mind what the Minister has already told the House with reference to the flash detected by the satellite in 1979, would it not be a good idea to ask the Americans to monitor carefully any signs of military activity in or near Marion Island? Such information could be shared with our allies and the rest of the world in order that proper representations could be made against any militarisation of the island if that should occur later on.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I note what the noble Lord has said. As he will be aware, we remain in close contact with the Americans on a wide range of issues concerning South Africa.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, following the question of my noble friend Lord Orr-Ewing I should like to ask the noble Baroness as a senior Minister at the Foreign Office whether we have any ministerial responsibility for what goes on on Marion Island.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, Marion Island is part of the sovereign territory of South Africa. I answer questions because these are matters which can be raised in your Lordships' House.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I should like to ask the Minister whether it is absolutely clear that Marion Island is South African sovereign territory. Is she aware that there is doubt about that matter and that Marion Island is regarded by many states as being within the Antarctic, as has been reported in the press? Is it not the case that Marion Island is approximately 1,200 miles south of Capetown? Is the Minister able to indicate quite clearly where the limits of Antarctica are defined and whether in those circumstances Marion Island could be within those limits?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the noble Lord puts in a different form the question which he asked earlier. I can only say that my clear advice is that the Antarctic Treaty does not cover Marion Island.

§ Lord Harvington
My Lords, would it not be of great assistance to the noble Baroness in cases such as this, and also cut short much of the discussion, if her department were to give her the co-ordinates of these small places so that anyone can go and look at them? She could then say, "You will find it in the Library. It is this".

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that most helpful reply. I am sure it is one which will be widely welcomed in the House.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, I understood the noble Baroness to say in her reply that Her Majesty's Government had reminded the South African Government of the non-proliferation treaty. Would not that make the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, quite in order?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I can confirm to the noble Lord that we have made clear to the South African Government that they should keep to the non- 1094 proliferation treaty. This is the Government's position on that matter.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, will the noble Baroness tell her noble friends behind her that it is perfectly in order to ask such a Question in view of the fact that the Foreign Office has publicly announced that it is making an investigation, and that in any case we have a responsibility under the test ban treaty?
When the noble Baroness says that the South African Government have denied that there is any military activity on this island, is she aware that American scientists have reported visits to the island by both South African and Israeli military officials? Is she aware that even though there is, as she rightly says, no conclusive proof that the 1979 flash was a nuclear flash, there is a very wide belief in Washington that this is the only explanation that can fit the flash that was spotted on the satellite?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, let me start by making clear the position of the Government on this matter, which is not quite as the noble Lord suggested in his supplementary question; that is, that we shall consider whether to approach the South Africans in the light of further developments. I cannot comment on press reports of what it may or may not have been alleged was said or took place in Washington.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
But, my Lords, it has been stated by the Foreign Office—

Noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
—that it is investigating a report. Is it not the case that the Foreign Office publicly stated on 29th December that it is investigating a report of military activity on that island?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I really cannot add anything to the answers that I have already given.