HL Deb 17 February 1987 vol 484 cc993-6

2.57 p.m.

Lord Broxbourne

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have given consideration to the judgment of the European Court of Justice in Case 93/85, sub nomine Commission of the European Communities v. United Kingdom; and whether they will make a statement on the constitutional and financial implications thereof.

The Secretary of State for Employment (Lord Young of Graffham)

My Lords, the Government naturally accept the court's judgment on this case, which clarifies the position. The main consequence of the Court's conclusion that member states are legally obliged to meet justified requests for advances is that such advances will now come within the scope of the direct charging provisions of Section 2(3) of the European Communities Act 1972, and will therefore he paid in future direct from the Consolidated Fund rather than from Supply Estimates. The new arrangements do not have any effect on public expenditure totals, nor on the total own resources available to the Community.

Lord Broxbourne

My Lords, perhaps my noble friend will accept my thanks for his reply together with my commiserations for the circumstances which have evoked it. While sympathising with the Governments' wish to refuse the so-called invitation of the Commission to advance by a month the payment of the United Kingdom's contribution to the Community's own resources, may I ask this question? Was it not predictable that whatever a British court might have found (which has no jurisdiction in such a matter), the European Court of Justice, which has jurisdiction and from which there is no appeal, would be inclined to have regard to the agreeable Community practice of cloaking its iron fist within a velvet glove and equating the invitation so-called, with an obligation which is, in fact, what it is?

Noble Lords

Speech!

Lord Broxbourne

This is a very important matter. It may not be within the comprehension of noble Lords on the Front Bench opposite.

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, first of all perhaps I may say that I am grateful to receive my noble friend's thanks. I will accept thanks from all quarters, and particularly from my noble friends. Secondly, the noble Lord must form his own view of the consequences of the difference in treatment between judgments of our own courts and those of the European courts.

Lord Mulley

My Lords, does this decision and others not possibly dissuade the noble Lord, Lord Broxbourne, from the rather unfortunate idea that he has that we should incorporate the European statute on human rights as part of our statute law—in other words, putting the European Court in charge of all our affairs? In fact, in my view the new doctrine of judical review that the judges have coughed up for themselves without any authority makes ministerial responsibility extremely difficult. If we were to have the European Court taking full charge of all our local courts we should be in great difficulty.

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, it is not for me to speculate on what may be in my noble friend's mind.

Lord Denning

My Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that according to the plain interpretation of the English version of the regulation their interpretation was completely right and the interpretation put upon it by the European Court of Justice was completely wrong? In view of the fact that the Advocate-General was not from this country, and eight of the nine judges were not from this country is it not time concerning the interpretation of the English language that they underwent a course of instruction in plain English?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord will surely accept that there are many of us in this world who have lived at a time when we thought that we understood quite clearly the interpretation of a piece of statute, only to find that the courts, in their own wisdom, would give a contrary interpretation. All of us are now learning to live with that.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the bringing forward of payments alleged to be due from the United Kingdom, which was the cause of this action, arose from an overspending on the common agricultural policy for the year 1983? The first question I have to ask him is whether—

Noble Lords

One!

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, the question I have to ask the noble Lord is whether those price increases that gave rise to the excess were approved by Her Majesty's Government. May I also ask the noble Lord, in view of the constitutional importance of this matter, despite asides that may come from outside the House, whether the Government accept the view expressed at paragraph 22 of the court's judgment that, only the Commission can assess whether it is necessary to bring forward the entering of own resources since the Member States are responsible only for collecting the resources and making them available but not for their management; they are under a duty to bring forward the entry of own resources as requested without expressing their agreement or disagreement. Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord how much the interest has cost the taxpayers of the United Kingdom.

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I believe I can do no more than to refer the noble Lord, and indeed all your Lordships, to my Answer that the new arrangements do not have any effect on the public expenditure totals, or on the total own resources available to the Community. We are talking about only when it is paid, not how much.

Lord Hooson

My Lords, is it not correct that the judgment of the European Court binds every other member of the Community, and that there has been no kind of discrimination against this country?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I suspect that actually that is the case.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, yes, but is my noble friend aware that there is considerable disquiet that matters as intricate as this have a judicial decision given (to which there is no appeal) outside the boundaries of our own judiciary?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, surely that is a matter for the whole arrangements with the European Community, and that I think is one to which we have all gladly acceded.

Lord Paget of Northampton

My Lords, as a matter of practice is there any other European Community country that pays any attention to this sort of decision when it does not fall in with its views?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, the noble Lord must form his own conclusion as to that.

Lord Broxbourne

My Lords, without wishing to trespass on the impatience of the House perhaps I may ask my noble friend to be good enough to clear up the misapprehension in the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Mulley, as to the distinction between the European Court of Justice, the Community court at Luxembourg, and the European Court of Human Rights at Strasbourg, with which my Bill in the last Session was concerned. Further, is it not a rather expensive way of getting a better knowledge of Community law to have to pay interest at over 20 per cent.?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I should be happy to think that I was in a position to satisfy all your Lordships' as to the distinction between the two courts, but I am afraid it is rather wide of the Question, and we shall have to defer that to another time.