York: Unemployment Figures (Hansard, 16 February 1987)

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Secretary of State for Employment (Lord Young of Graffham)
My Lords, the unemployment rate for the York travel-to-work area published by my department on 15th January was 10.1 per cent. However, the rate is calculated using a denominator which does not take into account those members of the working population who were self-employed or in the armed forces, because the data are not available for small areas. For the Yorkshire and Humberside region as a whole, the inclusion of those people in the denominator reduces the regional unemployment rate from 15.1 per cent. to 13.5 per cent., a fall of 1.6 percentage points. Therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that the rate for York, if the full information were available, would be less than 10 per cent.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving those details. Is it not quite dangerous for any Minister, especially a Minister in an important position like the Secretary of State, to assume any such thing? Is the Minister aware that, since the date when those figures were collated, unemployment in the York travel-to-work area has risen by nearly 300? Bearing in mind that over the past 12 months 130,000 jobs have been lost in manufacturing industry, and 10,000 to 13,000 of those in the past month, will the Secretary of State say how many of those 300 jobs were manufacturing jobs, and is it not a fact that the situation is not as he has tried to describe it?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I would gladly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dean of Beswick. However, I should be failing in my responsibilities if I did not take into account the 2,800,000 of our citizens who work for themselves. In any of our calculations we cannot ignore the self-employed; nor is there any reason why we should do so. In answer to the noble Lord's second supplementary question, I accept that during the normal increase in January the unemployment rate in the York travel-to-work area went up to 10.4 per cent. However, assuming that York citizens are just as enterprising as the average of those in Yorkshire and Humberside, in terms of those who are looking for work, that would still make unemployment in the region well under 10 per cent. I believe that it is important that we look unemployment fairly and squarely in the face, recognise the advances that have been made and not, for sheer political advantage, try to exaggerate the position.

§ Lord Diamond
My Lords, in relation to his last statement with which I am sure the whole of your Lordships' House will agree—namely, that we should not make a political football of these statistics—can the Minister say what earthly relevance there is in producing a proportion of people who are seeking work by reference to people who are not seeking work—to wit, the self-employed?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I am very grateful for the noble Lord's agreement that we should 858 not make political football out of this matter. Then he immediately proceeds to try and score a goal! It is important that we should look at those who are looking for work in relation to the entire population of this country of working age. It is no use excluding the self-employed, just as it is no good including, for example, those concerned in tourism or those with red hair or those in any other category. We should look at the whole problem in proportion. Since 1979 we have seen the number of self-employed rise from 1.9 million to over 2.8 million. I suspect that before the end of the 1990s we shall see the number of self-employed increase to 3 million, and maybe many more. We cannot continue to ignore a sector of the population which has grown that large; a sector not looking for work, and which is gainfully employed and also which demands to be treated with the same respect as any employee in the land.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is correct that the self-employed should not be included in the unemployment figures? With reference to making employment figures the target for political controversy, is the Minister aware that he is the biggest subscriber to that element in calculating the unemployed in Britain? He does not seem at all concerned with the emotional and social aspects of unemployment.

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, the Minister can answer. With reference to the various schemes that he has introduced to reduce the number of unemployed by putting them on training schemes for six or seven months, can the Minister answer the following question? Can he say whether or not there is a follow-up after training to enable the people on the scheme to get proper jobs and not return to the ranks of the unemployed?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, in answer to that question, I can do no more than say that I am quite content to stand by my record.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, how on earth can the Secretary of State count the self-employed, who by definition are employed, along with the unemployed who by definition do not have jobs? How does he equate these two matters? Is it not the case that recently the calculation by his own department of the number of self-employed (which is always a loose calculation) has risen steeply? Can the Minister say why this is so? Is it not in order to reduce the number of unemployed that he is calculating? Is it not a gross misuse of his office that in order to take part in a general election campaign a statement of this kind is made in a city such as York where the employment rate, as my noble friend has said, is over 10 per cent.?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I am glad to say that the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, was as near the mark as he generally is. Let me assure your Lordships' House of the self-evident truth. The calculations we are discussing do not affect by one the number of unemployed in the land. What we are talking about is the proportion of the working 859 population formed by those who are out of work and looking for work. It is simply that. In considering the working population it is ludicrous to ignore the 2.8 million people who work for themselves. They would claim that they are working just as hard as any employee in the land. Therefore, we take the proportion of those looking for work and compare it with those who are employees and the self-employed. This has nothing whatever to do with politics or with an election. If there is any matter which would satisfy your Lordships' House, I should like to say that recently the OECD, which is not particularly interested in elections in the United Kingdom, have revised the published figures for the United Kingdom and show an unemployment rate of 11.2 per cent. in December as compared to the national figures of 11.3 per cent. These figures were calculated on the basis that I have just explained.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, in answer to that point, perhaps I may say that the question from my noble friend Lord Dean of Beswick, concerns the unemployed. It does not ask about those seeking jobs.

Noble Lords
Speech!

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, a statement was made in York referring to the proportion of unemployed, not to those seeking work.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, the question refers to a statement which I confirm I made on BBC Radio York, that unemployment in York has now reached single figures in percentage terms. It has done so and unemployment in York must be in single figures whichever way it is calculated.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister aware that he has not produced one shred of hard, factual evidence to back up that statement? When the Minister introduced the fact that there may be political undertones in this question, can it be that the statement was made on the basis of the forthcoming general election in one of the most highly marginal constituencies in the country?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, the House will have the opportunity to debate this matter later on this week. However, I should like to confirm that unemployment is a quite serious matter. It is a problem which exists not only in this country but throughout Europe. It is serious enough that we should not seek to exaggerate it. It does not help the unemployed to be told continually, as indeed they are told by Members on the opposite side all too often, that there is no hope. There is considerable hope and I believe there is a considerable future for all in our country.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, in view of the allusion of the noble Lord to the necessity for keeping this matter out of party politics, will the noble Lord agree that it is just as important that the position of the unemployed should not be understated either? As is very well known, there is already a considerable difference between the registered unemployed which is 860 continually diminishing owing to manipulation of the figures, and those actually unemployed which are many, many more.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I must confess that I have lived a somewhat sheltered life and it is only within the past two or three years that I have entered your Lordships' House. Nevertheless, it comes as some surprise to me—and why it should be a surprise I am not too sure—that it is only since last summer that this obsession of those who sit opposite with "fiddling the figures" (if I can quote their favourite phrase) has come about. Can it be anything to do with the current direction of the unemployment figures?