§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Lord Nugent of GuildfordMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of a proposal to close down the faculty of transportation at the University of Birmingham, and if so how they would propose that an adequate supply of traffic engineers be maintained.
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, I understand that the University of Birmingham is committed to continue the department of transportation and highway engineering in its present form to 1988, when its future will be reviewed taking full account of external advice.
§ Lord Nugent of GuildfordMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer, but it does not take us very far if it is only to 1988. Is he aware that this faculty produces the greatest number of trained traffic engineers of any university in the United Kingdom? Is he further aware that the Government's excellent record in highway building is sometimes marred by poor traffic management, and that we take the wooden spoon for road signs in this country? Does my noble friend agree that the Government should ensure that this faculty is continued in order to continue to produce the excellent traffic engineers that it now produces?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, it is important to have an adequate supply of traffic engineers. In that respect my information is that the Department of Transport is unaware of any present deficiency in numbers. However, the University of Birmingham is in touch with the principal users of the services of its own department of transportation and highway engineering and will take all those views into account.
§ The Lord Bishop of BirminghamMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the University of Birmingham reckons that it will be £2 million in the red without drastic cut-backs such as those? Is he further aware that many departments are in great difficulty with the present level of university grants? For example, the department of theology finds itself without a New Testament lecturer.
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State announced in November that the recurrent grant for the universities in the financial year 1987–88 will increase by £95 million beyond this year's level. That is an increase of 7 per cent.
The Earl of HalsburyMy Lords, does the Minister accept that under the presiding genius of the late Sir Herbert Manzoni, the chief traffic engineer to the city of Birmingham, that city led the world in inner traffic management? Would it not be a thousand pities if the school in Birmingham University which was irradiated by his genius in years gone by were to pack up?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, the university recognises its responsibility to local and national industry and has taken a number of welcome initiatives. Its current review forms part of the preparation of an academic plan for the whole university.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, may I warmly support the strong plea made by the noble Earl and ask the Minister how many similar faculties there are in the universities in Great Britain? Secondly, is it the case that the University Grants Committee has pressed for this closure as a result of pressure from Her Majesty's Government?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, in answer to the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question, I understand that there are 10 or 11 other university faculties or institutes of technology in the United Kingdom which also deal with transportation matters. As regards the second part of his supplementary question, the University Grants Committee is of course entirely independent and comes to its conclusions independent of government.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, I must press the noble Earl to he more specific in his reply. How many other universities have faculties which produce traffic engineers in the same way as the University of Birmingham, with its incomparable record, is doing at present?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, my understanding is that there are 10 or 11 other faculties or departments in the United Kingdom. I think it is recognised, however, that the University of Birmingham is at the forefront of research in transport matters.
§ Baroness Fisher of RednalMy Lords, will the noble Earl accept from me that the department in Birmingham University is the only independent department of transportation and highway engineering? Is he aware of the tremendous research that the department carries out into accident analysis and the reason why accidents occur? Moreover, it is running courses at present which have export potential. They are for the developing countries, and were instigated and paid for to a great extent by grants from the Overseas Development Corporation. Is it not important that what has already been well established by this department should continue because in the main it will be cost-effective, saves accidents on the roads and avoids potential deaths?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, I endorse very fully all the complimentary remarks that the noble Baroness has made in regard to the Department of Transportation and Highway Engineering at the 514 University of Birmingham; and I am sure that the University Grants Committee together with the university will take account of these considerations.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, will the noble Earl accept that his words of praise for the Department of Transportation—namely, that it is in the forefront of these matters—will be received with great pleasure at the University of Birmingham? However, if that is the case, why is it under threat?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, I do not accept that it is under threat. As I understand it, it is the intention of Birmingham University to review the position in 1988, but to do so as part of a rolling academic plan for the whole university.
§ Earl AttleeMy Lords, is it not true that as this department only has until 1988 it means that from today until that time the poor professors and tutors will not know whether they have a very short or a very long future ahead of them? Is this not making it rather difficult for them and their students?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, while I appreciate the point that has been made by the noble Earl, I think that this is a matter for the University of Birmingham and the University Grants Committee to consider on their own.
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, can the noble Earl tell the House the circumstances which justify even the consideration of the proposal to close that faculty? What were the surrounding circumstances that justified its inclusion on the agenda at all?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, in answer to my noble friend, our information in this respect is relayed to us by the University Grants Committee and the University of Birmingham. It is therefore an internal decision.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, can the noble Earl tell us where the University Grants Committee obtains its money?
The Earl of DundeeYes, my Lords; I shall be delighted to tell the noble Lord. As I think I said in an earlier reply, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State announced in November that the recurrent grant for the universities in the financial year 1987–88 will increase by £95 million beyond this year's level; and that represents an increase of 7 per cent.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, in his replies the noble Earl has referred only to the University Grants Committee and the University of Birmingham's review. Do the Government intend to lay down their own views on the necessity for this for transportation needs?
The Earl of DundeeNo, my Lords. I do not think that it is for the Government to interfere. Decisions about the future of individual departments are for the university itself to take. I am sure that the university, and the University Grants Committee in its national planning, will take account of the national need for traffic engineers.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, because of the replies that have just been given some of us are now very confused. Is the University of Birmingham under threat or not?