Airport Runway Capacity in South (Hansard, 5 February 1987)

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, my right honourable friend proposes no immediate action. He is satisfied that the pattern of airport capacity provision in the South of England set out in the 1985 White Paper Airports Policy should be sufficient until at least 1995.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, does that reply mean that the Government are contemplating no action at all? It did not seem to be a' direct answer to the Question. If it does mean that, may I ask the Government why they are so adamant in refusing to consider any additional runway capacity in the South of England? Is the noble Lord aware that the immediate past president of the CAA, Sir John Dent, and the present one, Mr. Christopher Tugendhat, have both said that there will be a necessity for this? Do the Government take no account of chairmen of the Civil Aviation Authority in matters affecting civil aviation?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, on the contrary my right honourable friend naturally pays close attention to the observations made by both Mr. Tugendhat and his predecessor as chairman of the CAA. If the CAA considers that additional airport capacity is needed, then the authority will formally so recommend to my right honourable friend as it is required to do so under Section 16(2) of the Civil Aviation Act 1982. My right honourable friend has not yet received any such recommendation from the CAA but if he does, then he will, of course, give it most careful consideration.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I am most grateful for that last grain of comfort? We might at least move a little further. But may I ask the Minister one further question? Does he recall that some time ago the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, asked the Government—and here I refer to Gatwick—whether they knew of any airport in the world which put through 25 million people on a single runway, and do the Government still think that that is a safe and advisable thing to do?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I do not have details of the figures which the noble Baroness gives me as to whether Gatwick is the busiest airport with a single runway. But, in the 1985 White Paper, the Government re-affirmed that a second main runway should not be built, and the key reason for that was environmental.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, given my noble friend's first Answer—that the capacity is adequate only until 1995—and given the time which, as he knows, is required from the initiation of an airport scheme to the opening of the airport, is it not high time, whatever recommendations the Government were to receive from elsewhere, that the Government themselves were taking decisions?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, in my original Answer I said "until at least 1995". However, as I said in my second answer to the noble Baroness, if the CAA considers that additional airport capacity is needed, then it has the powers to recommend that to my right honourable friend.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, does the noble Lord recall that he said the reason for not building a second runway at Gatwick was environmental? When he considers questions of environment, will he not realise that a second runway at Gatwick might do something to relieve the very severe pressure that there is upon Heathrow, with its noticeable impact upon those who happen to live under the flight path? Will he not agree that the environmental pressure on people living under the flight path is so great that, if environmental considerations count, this must lead to the construction of a second runway at Gatwick?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I have already stated the Government's position as regards the second runway at Gatwick. So far as Heathrow is concerned, there have been improvements over recent years due to the fact that aircraft are now quieter than they used to be. The review of night restrictions on flying is still going on at the moment.

The Earl of Selkirk
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend to remember that there are many runways in the North which are inadequately used, and that this is of no small consequence to the economic development of the North of England and of Scotland?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, my noble frend is quite right. Of course, the Question refers to the South-East of England, but during the last few years there has been a very large increase in the usage of airports in the North of England, and particularly Manchester when not on strike. Certainly, it has been a great success story.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, in view of the fact that it is now, I think, accepted by the majority that it was a mistake to give way to the lobbyists of the county of Surrey and to restrict the runway capacity at Gatwick, is it not absolutely unforgivable to restrict Stansted to one runway?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, in the report which was produced in the White Paper of 1985, it was recommended by the inspector that the second runway at Gatwick should not be built and the Government stand by that decision.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, I know that, but I asked whether, in the light of experience there, it is not an unforgiveable error to restrict the runway capacity at Stansted to one runway.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am afraid that I disagree with the noble Lord.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would care to correct something he said a minute or two ago about the strike at Manchester airport. He implied that the staff of the airport were on strike. In fact, I understand that it is the fire services which are on strike there, and it was perhaps an unfortunate reference to the people who work at Manchester airport who would like to see aircraft going through.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, if I gave that impression I certainly did not mean to. I said that there was a strike at Manchester airport. I attributed no blame to one side or the other as to who was responsible for it. But it is unfortunately hampering the development of what is a very successful airport indeed.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, is it not a fact that the Government have undertaken that they will not increase Stansted beyond 8 million passengers per annum up to a possible 18 million without parliamentary action on the matter, and that the runway at Stansted could, regrettably, take 25 million passengers per annum? Before any additional runway capacity is provided in the South-East, can the Minister assure the House that the widest consultation and consideration will be given to airports elsewhere in the country?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the noble Lord was quite right when he said that the first phase at Stansted will be restricted to no more than 8 million passengers per year, and that this will be done by means of an air transport movement limit imposed by order on affirmative resolution. Any further increase to, say, 15 million in the second phase, will also be subject to parliamentary approval. So I think there is plenty of opportunity for those concerned to make their feelings felt.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, on a point of clarification of what the Minister has said (because it is important), did I understand him correctly to tell the House that in connection with the laying down of any runways anywhere in the country, and not just in the South-East of England—though I mentioned the South—the primary condition would be environmental? Are we to understand from that that the environmental lobby has precedence over that of the aviation industry or anything else in connection with civil aviation?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
No, my Lords. That is not what I said. I was answering the noble Baroness specifically on the question of a second runway at Gatwick, when I said that environmental considerations had ruled that out.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
I am sorry, my Lords. Is the noble Lord aware that when he refers to Hansard he will see that he said what I said he said? Perhaps he will write to me and give me an answer on it? May I have an answer?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, of course, I will write to the noble Baroness. We shall just have to wait and see what Hansard says. But I was answering the noble Baroness's question about a second runway at Gatwick.